More handbrake turns concerning ODF. In an official statement, Microsoft has said it will not support OpenDocument in Office 12: ““We have no plans to directly support the OpenDocument format at this time.” This contradicts reports from yesterday. Andy Updegrove, OASIS’ legal counsel, responds, once again. Really, there’s no need to turn on your TV to watch soap operas.
Is it possible for the OSS community to create a OpenDOC filter for MS Word? This way, we will be saved from these daily soap operas…
The .doc format isn’t the one of interest going forward. OOo already has a filter built in that can read that format reasonably well, and it should be fairly simple for someone to write a script to have OOo convert .doc files to .odt files. The enterprise edition of StarOffice 8 has some kind of similar functionality already.
Open XML is the sticking point because even though it is an XML implementation it has a bunch of proprietary cruft on top of it. If someone can work through the proprietary parts of Open XML, it should actually be easier to convert to OpenDocument XML, but from the looks of things that won’t be easy.
Likewise people should make an ActiveX control to take valid css and turn much of it into absolutely positioned CSS which IE understands. Omn resize reconvert and reload the screen. The solution is not improving compatibility on the OSS side but allowing people to use open standards/formats without limiting Windows people’s access.
That way the content designer can work freely. Also it helps movbe people away from by limiting the amount of information in proprietary formats.
But if we don’t do that…there is no way we can come out of the DOC trap that we are in. Majority accepts only DOC format so we have to publish in DOC format. If MS Office had a ODF receiver then no one would need to publish in DOC Format…but for that someone would have to make it as I said before…and I am no programmer
(
Go there for an alpha release.
http://sourceforge.net/projects/ooo-word-filter/
They didn’t invent the format, they have no control over it, so it can’t be good. This is typical Microsoft.
EmmEff: “They didn’t invent the format, they have no control over it, so it can’t be good. This is typical Microsoft.”
I would have thought it more typical for Microsoft to buy their ideas rather than inventing them, albeit to the same purpose. If they don’t own it, they have no control over it.
I seems that the innovators Microsoft buy either go stale when they start to work for Billy Boy or they take the money and run when MS buys them out.
is not to trust anything printed at ZDNet. They are well known for FUDiscating articles and getting their stories wrong. But this time it lies all on Dan Farber and his blog.
I think Microsoft is going to throw chairs and monkey dance for the press for the next year, but in the end they will either support OpenDoc or the world will move on past them until they do.
OpenDocument is brilliant. It’s the shot heard round the computer world.
There was a similar situation 10 years ago when microsoft refused to use the “internet” and tried to push its own (propertiary) “Microsoft Network” instead (in Win95 AFAIR)
The end of the game was that MS switched to HTML after a while, created Internet Explorer and today dominate the browser market.
Ofcourse there are some major differences: MS word is already the dominating word processor while 1995 the question of the “dominating” network infrastructure was still open (anyone remembers Compuserve? BTX? AOL?…)
But the lessons one can learn from that are:
1. MS will switch their direction if the pressure is high enough
2. Using open standard may not prevent Microsoft from dominating the market.
“2. Using open standard may not prevent Microsoft from dominating the market.”
The point of OpenDocument is not to take some market from Microsoft. The main point is to have an open document format that can be used openly and freely (as in freedom) through many programs, from different companies, without being locked in with one vendor.
You are so right. (Strangely people do not understand it).
You are so right. (Strangely people do not understand it).
Strangely people do not understand the damage monopolies like Microsoft have caused the software and tech industry. Without them our systems would probably be much more secure and stable.
The only way to make them go away is to stop buying their products. But even that is mostly irrelevant now. The industry will correct itself with or without consumer’s help, thanks to the FSF.
We might lose a decade of innovation, but we’re getting a decade of competition in exchange, which might prove more productive.
Strangely people do not understand the damage monopolies like Microsoft have caused the software and tech industry. Without them our systems would probably be much more secure and stable.
On the flip side they have helped fuel the industry and create jobs.
I don’t think they’ve damaged anything personally. I think the other players that lost were in many cases shooting themselves in the foot or did not pay attention to the market(s) they were in.
You couldn’t make me believe for one moment MS killed a company like Commodore and there were plenty of moronic outfits like that around back in the day who had great technology.
We might lose a decade of innovation, but we’re getting a decade of competition in exchange, which might prove more productive.
so basically a bunch of free software that is just now (for the most part) becoming decent enough to use and only of which a small percentage is even comparable to MS offerings somehow would put us 10 years ahead of the game ?
I remember development tools of the 90s, beyond Borland most of it was crap and coding on Linux anything past 24 months ago was basically like the stone age of MS DOS software development.
MS has done fine, and if something better takes the thrown then so be it. In the end consumers can only win either way.
Quote: ” On the flip side they have helped fuel the industry and create jobs.”
The same can be said of many other companies. It’s nothing special relating to Microsoft I hate to tell you.
Quote: ” I don’t think they’ve damaged anything personally.”
Many of us, old enough to remember, do think that they’ve irreparably damaged things.
Quote: “I think the other players that lost were in many cases shooting themselves in the foot or did not pay attention to the market(s) they were in.”
In some cases yes, but in some cases they were beaten out of business by illegal business tactics, by, you guessed it – Microsoft!
Quote: ” so basically a bunch of free software that is just now (for the most part) becoming decent enough to use”
That’s FUD and bullshit.
Quote: “only of which a small percentage is even comparable to MS offerings”
Again, that’s FUD. And Bullshit.
Quote: “coding on Linux anything past 24 months ago was basically like the stone age of MS DOS software development.”
You really like to spread FUD and bullshit don’t you?
Quote: ” MS has done fine”
Depends on which way you look at it. From a business perspective, and from the shareholders/investors perspectives, they’ve done fine. From the industry, as a whole, they’ve irreparably damaged it, resulting in less compeition, and poorer quality of product, with increased prices. Microsoft is a monopoly, in fact, they’re a convicted monopolist (twice). That is not healthy for an industry, especially since the governing bodies in the US refuse to take appropriate actions against Microsoft. They’re rather protect the US economy, than punish a predatory, anti-competitive, monopolistic bully like Microsoft.
Dave
Microsoft spokesperson:
“We have no plans to directly support the OpenDocument format at this time,”
Dan Farber reports:
Microsoft is working with a French company on translators to determine the scope of the problem in exporting Office documents to ODF
Not mutually exclusive MS could planning to “maybe” release (or have a stalking horse release) a plugin (for example a print to open document psuedo printer driver like the ones currently available from third parties to print Office douments to PDF) which would be indirect support for ODF. They could then use this to argue that they support export to the open standard.
Not really. “Export to PDF” exports to PDF as an image. It usually doesn’t preserve text – the OpenOffice.org export, for example exports the content as an image.
If Office exports the content as an image into an ODF file – which is possible – it really will be useless, because unlike PDF, Word aspects change with screen size, so it might not be what you expect. Word wraps and page breaks might be different.
They have to export the text and styles into XML or it doesn’t make sense to do it at all. Otherwise, you might as well paste screenshots into an OpenDocument file.
Edited 2005-10-28 15:18
Export to PDF” exports to PDF as an image. It usually doesn’t preserve text – the OpenOffice.org export, for example exports the content as an image
No, OOo exports formated text and font information, just try it – create a PDF from OOo then you can copy the test from Reader or Xpdf and paste it into Writer or whatever. The PDF specification allows you merely export an image which is why it is used so much for scanned douments. An image alone in an odt wrapper is not an acceptable Open Document file.
Tell microsoft that you will no longer buy their products unless they support open standards like ODF.
I have had enough of their lockin tactics and refusal to support standards.
Anyone know where I can email MS with feedback?
Too much anger. There are many many options you can choose from, many office suites (Oo is the latest), I understand you and have used the same reason to move away from Microsoft. Isn’t it a really big waste of your time, money and nerves when you have so many options? I’m not saying “use linux” or anything, but do some research in alternative applications and use the ones you like the most, no one said MS products are the best (far from it, infact).
Anyone know where I can email MS with feedback?
Open Word, click on “help” and then click “contact us”
Read between the lines.
no plans to directly support.
So there will be support but not on the cd .
A plugin from a 3th party most likely. (with some help from ms but not official )
“MS will switch their direction if the pressure is high enough ”
So pressurize them!
* Educate your friends
* Spread the buzz through blogs!
* Make flyers and distribute them
* Put your email signature to good use provided you aren’t using it already
* Buy ads in newspapers, magazines and promote this idea – issued in public interest.
* Talk to CEOs you know, ask them to talk to their MS mediator and ask for ODF ASAP
* If you run a business, ask your MS ‘Salesman’to forward your request for ODF.
* Search for ODF on Microsoft
* If you are entitled to free support from MS, ask them how to open ODF documents
* Put feature request on their website/forum/whatever
That is all I can think. And remember our DATA is at stake.
So pressurize them!
Great ideas but honestly I can think of more important things to do with my time.
And remember our DATA is at stake.
Not mine.
The day MS removes ‘Save As.. ‘Text Document (.txt)’ from Word is the day I’ll worry that I’m locked into their format.
And remember our DATA is at stake.
Not mine.
The day MS removes ‘Save As.. ‘Text Document (.txt)’ from Word is the day I’ll worry that I’m locked into their format.
Well, not necessary. What if you needed a document desperately but that was enclosed in a proprietary format and you NEED to buy a $300 app to open it???
Do you still think you have other imp. things to do after this?
Anywayz, your choice.
There is software for Windows that does support ODF.
If relatively few people use that software, it doesn’t matter that it is available. Along the same lines, not everyone has the choice of what software they use on every computer they use. Not all IT departments allow OOo or StarOffice to be installed. For some people their main computer is owned by their employer, and they aren’t allowed to install anything they want on it. So, alternative software is not always an option.
While I still strongly dislike (used to hate them a lot) MS for their monopolistic and belittling behaviour, I am no zealot.
So, even though I find my Ubuntu better and more comfortable than my WinXP copy, I have no problems admitting that MS Office is 99% sure the better suite out there. I even don’t mind other people using it (if they trust storing their data data in binary doc or xls… well). But I really wish that MS includes OpenDocument support (even to older releases of office).
Why? Simple. I want to be respected when getting e-mail attachments. I have problems reading very complex .doc’s or .xls’ so if people understand not everybody use MS Office and then send me their attachments in open standards I would be really happy.
The day grants can be fulfilled from Linux without problems (there are too many official documents only properly readable in the last two office releases) I will be in heaven.
However, I don’t think this will happen. I understand Office is a strategic weapon to MS to keep their OS market share (not everybody knows Office runs in a Mac). That is why I think it is easier to get a pirated office than winXP.
This is Microsoft. They will still be saying “no” the day before they implement odf support or “yes” the day before they cancel it and fire the coding team. There’s no point believing a word they say, not least because the company appears to be so disorganized that 101 different spokespersons may pop up on a given day and say something else anyway. Why, Microsoft may even apply these novel “management techniques” to producing an operating system some day.
All we have are the facts: there is no odf support in Microsoft products. So all we can do is plan accordingly.
Look closer: “We have no plans to directly support the OpenDocument format at this time.”
Why use the word ‘directly’ unless they have more to say, but do not want to say anything yet. Seems to me that they are impling that they do have plans to support it, but not inside Office. First thing that comes to mind is a outside utility tool that would convert to and from or a Office plugin.
Either way, it’s useless. Most users only use what they have on their machine, they just click “SAVE”, they don’t and SHOULDN’T give a rat’s a*s if there is some quazy add-on available on their update site. I can’t wait to explain to a customer “You need some plugin which you find on MS update site. No, it’s safe. No, there is no other way….”. All this just shows once again what a bad player Microsoft is and another proof Microsoft is slowing down computer evolution by only accepting their way, which has OH SO MANY times proven to be bad. Sure, they don’t have to agree with everything, but they shoudln’t also disagree with EVERYTHING that isn’t made by Microsoft.
At least that’s how I see things.
If this is the path that MS takes, then people will learn to mangage, if they are required to use ODF.
It’s a butterfly effect, if a large company or government makes it a best to use. If Mass, does make it the rule for all documents, then all companies, organizations, etc that want to work for or with the state will have to either run and office suite that supports it natively or have a support program for conversions; either way, people will adapt if they have too.
The people who support ODF are going to cry foul no matter what Microsoft does, and the people who use Word generally could give a rats ass about anything Word doesn’t support – So give me one good reason Microsoft should support it.
Especially given the way the fans of things with “Open” in the name get their panties in a bunch either way they go. The OSS zealotry is driving businessmen away – Grow the {censored} up.
So give me one good reason Microsoft should support it.
The Commonwealth of Massachusetts, The European Commission and thousands of governments and government agencies around the world. All the archivists and librarians that want a vendor neutral open format.
Hey thats lots of reasons
If you cannot understand the fundamental usefulness to everybody (except maybe Microsoft) of having an open document standard without vendor lock-in perhaps, and I hate to say it, it’s you who should “Grow the {censored} up.”
Another anonymous poster replied to your parent post with exactly what I was going to say:
“If you cannot understand the fundamental usefulness to everybody (except maybe Microsoft) of having an open document standard without vendor lock-in perhaps, and I hate to say it, it’s you who should “Grow the {censored} up.””
Microsoft is only interested in .doc format because it locks you into both MS Office, and MS Windows. That means more revenue for Microsoft. Damn if the document isn’t open, or interchangeable with other operating systems/office suites. Microsoft’s attitude is “tough shit”. That, sadly, is not an acceptable outcome. Microsoft needs to be taught how to respect their customer’s wishes.
Dave
>The OSS zealotry is driving businessmen away – Grow
>the {censored} up.
Asshat. Since when did the ability to communicate with other people without restriction become zealotry? Are you really that stupid?
They will support it when their customers ask for it. I don’t think the people currently calling for support intend to buy MS Office, therefor MS doesn’t care. But let some of their customers, or even potential customers ask for it, and they will incorporate it. But even if they incorporate it, people will still save as the default and you will still have to deal with doc files.
I’m not claiming that it is good or right, but simply that that is how it is.
Read article from October 25, 2005.
http://www.boston.com/business/technology/articles/2005/10/25/galvi…
For anyone that read that article it was just expected MS move for a few days now. To be honest, I was more surprised with yesterdays news about supporting than todays since I read that article first of the three.
1. It is more profitable if they don’t support OASIS
2. It requieres less work
3. Guaranties user lockdown
4. (This is just my guessing) Probably their new try to avoid need for OASIS support. It is always cheaper and easier to buy a politician or two.
AGAIN! Last point is just my guessing, not bashing.
DON’T SUPPORT A CONVICTED MONOPOLY
MS has little reason to support OpenDocument. The people who care are of a small percentage compared to the amount of people who have MS OFfice installed on their office machines and use it everyday. Like it has been said many time most people click save and thats that. Who do you think has the bigger share in Office Productivity Suites? MS Office or something else? Most support MS Office and that is what is used. If you ever send an email to someone with an OpenDocument 95% of the time you will get an email back saying “WTF is this my Office can’t read it” you send a .doc format and you will probably never see an incompatiable format reply.
Standards are not formed by whether or not its an Open format (which most users honestly don’t eve care whether or not is open or closed source) standards are basically and simply put what becomes the most popular becomes the standard. VHS vs. betamax-betamax was better but more expensive VHS was cheap and people movies started coming out on VHS thus people used VHS and more and more used it and it became the de facto standard of how people recorded and distrbuted videos for the longest time. All simply because it was more popular.
There are not thousands of governments even in existence so that answer was BS There is only 193 countries in the world most of them are not divided as the US is in terms of governments (aka three level: executive, state, local) and most of them are not using OpenDocument.