A few weeks ago, we talked about how Ubuntu is forcing snap packages on users, even when using apt. Since various distributions are based on Ubuntu, a lot of users of those distributions are wondering if snaps will infect their systems, too. One of the most popular Ubuntu-based distributions, Linux Mint, has a clear answer.
First, I’m happy to confirm that Linux Mint 20, like previous Mint releases will not ship with any snaps or snapd installed. Second, to address this situation we’ll do exactly what we said we would:
o In Linux Mint 20, Chromium won’t be an empty package which installs snapd behind your back. It will be an empty package which tells you why it’s empty and tells you where to look to get Chromium yourself.
o In Linux Mint 20, APT will forbid snapd from getting installed.You’ll still be able to install it yourself and we’ll document this in the release notes, but by default APT won’t allow repository packages from doing this on your behalf.
This is good news, and the right route to take.
Over the years I’ve really come to appreciate linux mint’s philosophy of actually listing to and respecting users rather than preaching to us. I don’t really know much about the team, but three cheers for the guys at linux mint!
I have a longer memory of that team, Lefebve (lead developer) said not to use the distro by anyone who supported the Israel government (Look it up). So a majority of a democratic nation (at least).
Adurbe,
You should provide a link, but it seems this is what you are referring to:
https://www.extremetech.com/computing/83296-the-great-linux-mint-political-train-wreck
Well I never heard about it before. Ironically neither he nor extremetech author talked about the specific politics they are referring to, which leaves this without any context, but I assume it’s about asymetric warfare and the expansion of israeli settlements on palestinian land. I don’t judge him for having a strong personal opinion, but it seems ill conceived to associate it with the project.
As for me, I’d much rather judge projects like linux mint on their own merits. If I were to start judging all projects by the opinions of their authors, it would put me in a hellish positions from which I might never recover.
Yeah apologies for not adding the link, should have done. You quote the apology, post initial backlash. But it’s that I am referring to.
If the project keeps to technical merit, I do too. And it should be judged accordingly.
But when a project defines what users should/shouldn’t use their project based on political/religious beliefs, I take issue with that and it tarnished any technical benefits of the distro, leading me to switch from it. If others arnt allowed to use it, then I dont Want to.
Based on the description Mint’s package management sounds even more crippled than Ubuntu’s… Apt will install an empty package and tells the user to go download actual Chromium elsewhere? Package managers are supposed to do the exact opposite, bring apps together into one easy place.
P.S. Turning comments off is fascism for SJWs.
sj87,
You still can install snapd manually, it won’t happen automatically. In the long term though you may be right though, a lot of the upstream changes put mint in a tricky position because ubuntu’s the one dropping the original apt packages. Can linux mint afford the resources to maintain these software packages on it’s own assuming ubuntu continues to replace apt packages with snap? I wouldn’t be surprised if mint is ultimately pressured to change.
If an article is too sensitive to allow commenting, then it probably shouldn’t be posted here at all. But as the editor it is Thom’s prerogative.
I guess it can be justified to not enable cross-installation at all, essentially deprecating Apt in favour of something else, but it will be confusing as to why only a few packages get this treatment.
I know Mint has always had sub-par technical support, but for me this sounds really lazy.
IIRC Mint comes with Flatpak so you should be able to easily install Chrome that way.
When it comes to Snap and Flatpak packages. I still tend to avoid them as much as possible. I mostly install and update software in a traditional Linux way or use an AppImage.
As for removing only Snap package support from Linux Mint, not sure about that. Provide support for both by default or remove support for both by default. As currently both have around the same level of support, when you ask people that are supposed to use them.
Geck,
That’s not accurate though, it can be installed, it just won’t be auto-installed by default…
https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=3906
Reading the article explains the rational…
Linux mint is in a tough spot as an ubuntu derivative, but linux mint’s decision so far is simply not to auto-install snap by default, a decision which makes sense for now. However it may be impractical for them to resist snap in the long term if ubuntu chooses to migrate more and more packages to the snap store. They may have to start building & supporting a lot more apt packages internally. If ubuntu starts moving everything to snap, linux mint is going to have to make some sort of existential decision with how to proceed.
The thing is, us more technical users, tend to avoid Snap and Flatpak packages, for now. The people that don’t actually care all that much, they are i guess the target audience, for now. If such people will need to read and follow some instructions, that i guess defeats the whole purpose of Snap and Flatpak packages purpose.
Currently the whole situation is far from optional and in my opinion Snap and Flatpak packages are still years from being a mature choice. How do we get fro here to there, that is i guess the real question. As the strategy currently being used, that has close to zero chance of succeeding anytime soon.
What would you have linux mint do though?
1) They can cave and allow the ubuntu store to take over on linux mint.
2) They can take over for ubuntu in maintaining the apt packages.
3) Something else?
It’s easy to be criticize, but being critical is not enough. Everyone needs to be frank and realistic about what they want to see happen. What do you, sj87, and everyone else think should happen?
When i wrote “optional” in my last reply i meant “optimal”.
Right, what should we do. We should have a honest talk about technologies, such as Snap, Flatpak, Wayland … As currently there are a few camps in Linux ecosystem and they develop and develop and develop, but there is no clear vision and strong acceptance and adaptation of their work. And hence what we shouldn’t do is to waste a decade.
“The future of packaging is here”, great, lets disable it altogether. People developing such solutions will therefore need to start listening and Linux Mint should after stop disabling. And this should happen in a year or so, and not in a decade or longer.
Geck,
Ok, so your opinion is that they should go with #1.
But you’ll find there are both technical objections to the inefficiency of bundling dependencies with snap packages as well as objections to increasing ubuntu’s level of access & control over forks.
This probably doesn’t matter to you if you’re already an ubuntu user, but it may be a concern for other distros.
Obviously they should provide a proper Apt package — they cannot hide behind Ubuntu’s back while trying to appear as a worthy standalone distro. If they don’t want to be a proper distribution but merely a platform for Cinnamon DE, then drop Mint altogether and rather convert Cinnamon into an (official) Ubuntu flavour.
sj87,
So you think they should drop linux mint altogether to work on ubuntu. That’s one way to move forward.
Have you seen the linux family tree?
https://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=family-tree
It’s an insanely large diagram of linux distro forks. Every author felt a need to create their own versions for some reason or other. To someone looking at that, surely the first thing they think is “why are there so many forks?”. The answer is usually fairly strait-forward though, someone didn’t like something about the way one project was being run and wanted to try something different. In mint’s case, they were protesting against ubuntu’s agenda and its disregard for user feedback. Arguably in many ways ubuntu has gotten better about this, so maybe you can argue that linux mint isn’t necessary anymore. I don’t know, it’s obviously not my choice to make. I still have my own linux distro and I have no plans to stop maintaining it, so it would be hypocritical for me to tell linux mint to stop
Maybe I’m old fashioned, but whats wrong with adding an alternate APT source with the package you want if your dist’s default source(s) don’t include it or muck with it somehow.
Also – are PPA’s still a thing?
That is my thought, too. It seems like it would be trivially easy to take care of, and without causing a bunch of controversy.
Honest question here.
How is Ubuntu implementing this behind the scenes? I’m going to assume they are forking APT and putting in special handlers on the package name. If it’s in their snap-list, they invoke SNAP behind the scenes?
One of the things that I actually like about Linux/Ubuntu in general is just how easy it is to understand conceptually if you’re somewhat technical. I have a mental model of how APT works in terms of client, repository… I have a mental model of how SNAP works. My main concern with Ubuntu doing this behind the scenes with APT is it just complicates the model people have in their mind. Now if I invoke APT, I have to consider a case where behind the scenes, it goes to SNAP. It complicates everything from the model to debugging issues.
Yamin,
It’s easy to see what they did by opening the package manually…
https://packages.ubuntu.com/eoan/chromium-browser
For starters it installs fake chromium binaries:
The package has a hard pre-dependency on snapd, which causes snapd to be installed.
Also if you look at the preinst file (which gets run during installation), you see a script that invokes snap to install chromium:
Interestingly enough, there’s also some code to deal with some bugs/issues. Mind you I’m not familiar with any of this, but just following the leads:
bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/chromium-browser/+bug/1836616
bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/chromium-browser/+bug/1838821
I’m not sure if this adds anything of value to our discussion, but hopefully it does answer your question
It will install flat packs instead I did abandon Mint, when I noticed how its graphical tools react, when I try to set sources.list on the IP address of my home server.
I for one can’t get enough SCHNAPS !! *HIC* !