I want to say a few words about my current adventure. I joined the Fuchsia project at its inception and worked on the daunting task of building and shipping a brand new open-source operating system.
As my colleague Chris noted, pointing to this comparison of a device running a Linux-based OS vs Fuchsia, making Fuchsia invisible was not an easy feat.
Of course, under the hood, a lot is different. We built a brand new message-passing kernel, new connectivity stacks, component model, file-systems, you name it. And yes, there are a few security things I’m excited about.
Fuchsia is a much bigger deal than most people think. Make no mistake about it – this is the future of all of Google’s end-user facing operating systems, from Chrome OS, Android, all the way down to Wear OS and Google Home devices. The amazing thing is that with the way Fuchsia is built and designed, including its support for Android applications, most users will be none the wiser they’ve jumped from Linux to something new.
Thom Holwerda,
I agree. It’s an interesting read. I don’t think many of the ideas are that new, but I’m glad they’re addressing various problems we have with linux. To be honest I find it highly unlikely it would hit critical mass if not for the fact that google is behind it. But since they are, google is in a very strong position to shift a lot of market share from android/linux to fuchsia rather quickly. Of course the counterargument is the google graveyard, because that’s where so many google projects go to die.
https://killedbygoogle.com/
But assuming google does make the push I think it’s going to come as something of a shock to the linux community. The limited support we have on ARM is mostly down to vendors supporting android. It’s to early to call, but assuming that vendors follow google to fuchsia, it could leave linux’s mobile market-share very vulnerable.
All in all good luck with beating Linux. Even if you are Google i don’t believe you have a realistic chance.
Geck,
The thing is that google & android put linux mobiles devices on the map when no other company really managed to nearly as successfully. I wish other non-android linux phones were more popular, I really do, but I don’t think being pretentious is going to do us much good. Seriously most android users don’t even know what linux is. Do you really think they would notice the linux kernel being switched out? I doubt 1 in 10k people would even notice so long as google does a good job with Fuchsia. While it remains to be seen whether Fuchsia will be a good transparent replacement or not, I still think it is extremely foolish for the linux community to not take competitive threats like this seriously. Our community’s ego will be our downfall.
The truth is Google didn’t invent or made Linux or Java (or Kotlin). Other people and companies did that. Google took a sort of a steward role. If Google would go ahead and start undermining the very foundation Google is standing on, that is like shooting yourself in the foot. A decade back maybe, when we all where still very much enthusiastic about Google. Today i doubt anybody is cheering for Google to gain more control. I don’t believe people are foolish and don’t take such possible competition seriously. On the contrary and hopefully moving away from current status quo position will result in some quality made open source ARM Linux drivers. To further cement Linux kernel as preferred industry and consumer choice. And to not give Google more control, when it comes to kernel and promoting driver blobs.
For normal consumers and companies (and everyone else, except for OS developers who want to write device drivers and will bemoan a lack of specs); the primary reason why “binary blobs” are bad is that Linux is a festering security disaster.
Linux runs drivers in the kernel, with no restrictions or safeguards, and with full access to everything in RAM (and not just kernel’s data – access to your web browser’s data while you’re doing online banking, etc). Essentially, “binary blobs are bad” is a result of “Linux sucks so badly that you must trust all drivers with all your confidential data, therefore drivers have to be open source (and you have to hope that the binary you don’t see happens to match the source code you do see)”.
For comparison, Fuchsia runs drivers as separate user-space processes, and uses capabilities to further restrict what a driver can/can’t do (and can/will use IOMMU to restrict drivers even more, and hopefully/eventually will use digital signatures to ensure drivers haven’t been tampered with and aren’t malicious forgeries). With that kind of basic design competence, it’s difficult to care about binary driver blobs for more than just ideological reasons (e.g. “I’m a hippy that likes to eat jam from my toes and make comments supporting pedophilia, who thinks software should be free because capitalism is bad”).
That is your point of view and opinion, not mine. Personally i don’t feel Linux is any less secure, compared to other options. And i guess yes lets see if your claims are right. If they are then Fuchsia based Android will have less CVEs, compared to Linux based one. If that won’t turn out to be the truth, then your claims were bogus. As for some random shit about “capitalism” and “hippies”. Grow up.
@Geck : just like the monolithic vs. micro-kernel debate back in 1992 (https://www.oreilly.com/openbook/opensources/book/appa.html)
Linux is “faster” because there is less “bags” between the meat packs, hence Minix is more secure. But get a bad meat pack in Linux and your your system is taken down.
The “speed” argument is no more long before Linux existed. PMMU were introduced to partition memory and create “bags” at zero cost. Hence Minix is superior in every way.
Period.
We are fine with Linux on the servers, that’s how LInux is shining. On Android, it seems that the Linux on it doesn’t matter except for the nerd who wish to understand it. People will just use Linux desktop, Mac or Windows to develop apps for mobiles, be it Android or Fuchsia.
Linux works just fine on mobile too. Nerds likely use Fuchsia.
Geck,
Everyone here knows that. All I said is that they are a big reason it is popular on mobile, which is the truth.
Google has been getting flack over long turn support issues for which linux itself is at least partly responsible. Our stubbornness has gotten in the way of any progress in a decade in a half and it seems that google couldn’t wait any longer, so they went out and started Fuchsia. I am also concerned over a google power play, but I’m not going to deny that our skeletons are partially responsible for the troubles that are pushing google to seek alternatives. If we had been able to address the problems sooner, it’s less likely google would bother to switch kernels now.
AER,
I agree with you that If we loose mobile, the server market will still be a reliable market for linux. Bare in mind I want Linux to succeed and I want to take advantage of targeting one open source OS everywhere. I use it on my desktops and servers as a primary choice and have no intention of switching. However I am very concerned about our community’s stubbornness and I fear it’s impeding our ability to evolve with new markets. The friction we’ve been experiencing there for a long time now has been our own fault.
Did Google ever really tried to motivate more vendors to produce open source drivers? I don’t remember ever hearing about it. Hence maybe Google is the stubborn one.
Geck,
Stubbornness best describes the parties that are NOT changing. The chipset manufacturers are stubborn and have not been willing to change their policy on closed drivers. The linux community is stubborn and has not been willing to add a stable ABI. Google is the only parry here that is not stubborn and trying a new approach. Granted we don’t know where this ends up, but to be honest I’m pretty fed up with the eternal stalemate that still has no end in sight even looking decades forward.
@Alfman
I somehow knew all the discussion under this and previous news will somehow bear fruit. Now i understand the real issue. I too always thought on how some chip or device manufacturer is stubborn. And that is why progress is slow. Regarding open source drivers on ARM. But now i actually understand that Google is the main culprit. They took Linux and did everything in their power to make sure blobs are the preferred choice. When it comes to device drivers and Android. They did this from the get-go and never really advocated for free and open source device drivers. As it obviously backfired, how could it not, now they claim even more blobs is the proper solution. Ah, the irony! Anyway no way am i advocating for more crap. Thanks but no thanks. Somehow the world will find a way, for people like me, to spend that couple of hundreds of monetary units per year, for devices with free and open source software and drivers. Like decent and usable mobile phone, TV, computer, car … As for the rest, if they want to buy crap it’s not like they ain’t doing it already or i can prevent them.
Geck,
Feel free to cite your data. but I see little evidence for that. Building mainline Linux is problematic for the majority of ARM devices with or without android.
I actually have zero objections to your boycotting android and fuchsia (and IOS for that matter) over their use of proprietary code. Although it begs the question, what phone/tv/car/etc do you actually use?
@Alfman
I feel that it is the right thing to do, to be vocal about polluted air. People saying don’t breath it, that is not really a choice one can make.
Geck.
Ok, but what phone/tv/car/etc do you actually use? If you don’t have the full source code then that rant about what others buy earlier seems a bit hypocritical. Will you acknowledge that sometimes we have to take a more pragmatic approach even though it may not be exactly what we wanted?
@Alfman
As you might have already guess, Linux or Linux based.
Geck,
No, you brought it up, I want a real answer. What phone do you use that has full source code? What tv? What car?
@Alfman
I don’t owe you anything. Lets just leave it at that.
Geck,
Fair enough, although it weakens your points significantly.
That’s the thing about the world, our ideological preference bubbles can pop pretty quick when exposed to reality.
@Alfman
From an average consumer point of view if you are using Linux or Linux based, then you are doing enough. If you further choose to educate yourself to not be ignorant and prefer to choose hardware with open source drivers. Then you are in addition making a world a better place. If there is no such option available at that moment it is OK to be vocal about it and use the closest option that satisfies this criteria. Or i guess you can turn Amish?
Geck,
You and I can both be vocal about the benefits of open source, but I’m glad you concede that we don’t always have a choice. It raises the flaw in the logic of promoting linux over open drivers because in fact so many of our linux devices are closed in practice.
I understand the desire to proclaim that open drivers are better than closed drivers and I agree at face value. But this “open versus closed drivers” is a false dilemma when the linux drivers we are talking about are in fact closed. It is important to have this realization because there is something we can do to make more of the kernel open than it is today, we just need to be willing to work together and evolve rather staying stuck in ideologically induced stalemates.
@Alfman
No this is a bad deal and i am not signing it. There will be a decent mobile phone option with Linux and open source drivers in the future. With or without Google.
Geck,
Don’t kid yourself: you’ve already signed up for the no source code option.
What?
Have you drunk too much Kool-Aid recently?
Linux on the desktop does NOT exist. On Android it’s just the kernel + drivers – both a source of a major headache both for Google and OEMs.
The sooner it gets replaced, the better.
I don’t even know what Kool-Aid is. I read it is something some give to their kids. In my opinion giving that much sugar to your kids will harm their health and you should not be doing it. Please consult your doctor.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drinking_the_Kool-Aid
I see. In addition to some beverage that is likely not good for kids it has some other, mostly negative, meanings too. I can safely say i didn’t have any. As for your claims. I feel it is safe to say that without Linux there would likely not be much to replace in the past decade in the first place. Your reasoning is hence likely a bit flawed. That is your claims on how Linux is the main problem of Android. And on the other hand i guess claiming something else can replace it just like that and do a better job. If that would be true we wouldn’t have this discussion and likely it would already happen in all this years.
If you had had any relationship to Android development, updates, etc. you’d never said that. Go to xda-dev, Ars Technica, Android Police where many engineers from Google and other OEMs admit the Linux kernel is one of the main reasons behind a horrible situation with major Android updates.
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/03/the-fairphone-2-hits-five-years-of-updates-with-some-help-from-lineageos/
But again you’re drinking too much KoolAid and like most devoted Open Source fans it’s always “everyone’s else blame but not the Linux kernel’s”. Yeah, I’ve been hearing this excuse for decades now.
And what does that article say? It says blobs (binary drivers) are the main problem, not Linux. Linux people never claimed good long term binary drivers support. This is the path Google choose to take, prefer blobs. Linux people know better than that. If Google would do more regarding open source device drivers then in this past decade i am sure that you wouldn’t be reading that story about Fairphone and lack of Qualcomm device drivers. And why do you feel Fuchsia can change much in this regard? If Qualcomm will say 3 years or 3 Fuchsia versions of support, regarding drivers. That will be it. You don’t have any further control over that and after that good luck updating the device with new version of OS. And ease up on the Kool-Aid addition. Too much sugar is no good.
No, the Linux kernel is not the main trouble. It’s the whole business model of mobile hardware/phones. No mainstream manufacturer is willing to bring out a device that will be easily supported for 10 years. You will get your 2 years and then it is pony up for the next model du jour. Planned obsolescence is driving a multi-billion dollar industry.
Linux is just the convenient excuse. By supplying closed drivers, a manufacturer can rest assured that kernel developments will outdate the closed driver and then they can whine and point fingers at the kernel and conveniently forget that upstreaming that driver would have made it easily supportable for many years.
Yes, not everything can be open sourced… Yes, it exposes your software tricks… Etc… Many reasons to stick to anti-consumer, closed source; mainly money and shortcuts.
Where there is a will, there is a way. Enough manufacturers found a way to upstream their drivers. Even if it is by including a redistributable firmware blob that hides the sauce. At least this way it is possible to move beyond kernel 4.4.
@Geck Beating Linux at what? I need your critera
In general.
By what criteria? Better, like cheap, and other qualitative words only make sense when put in context. Better than what, in what way, and for what purpose. [Inset Name of Hypercar] might be faster than a e-scooter, but that doesn’t mean it is better if you have a short commute with little parking.
No i don’t feel the word cheap is an appropriate one. Companies invest billions in Linux and some Linux based devices are as expensive as Apple ones. People that claim Linux is cheap likely have a very superficial opinion of it. And usually it is hard to debate things related to Linux with such people.
@Geck I was was using cheap as another example of a word that needs context and criteria to be used, and I am fairly sure you knew that having read what I said,
What I asked you was what was your criteria for saying Linux was better, a question you seem to keep ignoring.
@jockm
When i said in general i meant the list and discussion would be too long. As for Fuchsia OS. Best to wait and see. It’s new and it basically has no track record. Lets give it five to ten years and then we can discuss pros and cons compared to Linux based solutions. From some general or some more specific use case point of view. ATM we would more or less talk hypothetically.
@Geck, where did I mention Fuschia, and if you are going to give me the list is too long argument, then you don’t understand the question. So let me rephrase it for you: Give me between 3-10 critical ways the Linux kernel is better than Fuschia kernel, since that is what you seem to be talking about now.
@jockm
Please read the whole discussion first. For example i already mentioned Linux and free and open source device drivers. That by itself should be enough. I am currently not aware of any other solution that can come close to that. This is just one thing that Linux does in general better and by design. Now if you will claim otherwise lets just agree we disagree.
@Geck
– Asking me to go hunt for your other comments isn’t really a great answer
– I asked for at least three because you said your list was too long, that is only one
– Linux can have non free drivers
– Why is it a given than all free drivers is a universal good? Before you accuse me of advocating/supporting non free drivers, my point is that you haven’t explained why it is better. You have just asserted it.
It seems to me your assertions don’t match up with you arguments
@jockm
I see you are not prepared to do anything and expect me to do something for you. As you didn’t claim otherwise i will assume we agree on that one. And if you will read the whole discussion again i already provided such list with 3 items on it. Better security by design, long term support and more control over it. If you feel otherwise lets just agree we disagree.
@Geck When I took rhetoric in college I was taught that the burden of proof lays with the person who makes the claim. They have to provide it, not give you a homework assignment, or tell you to look it up, but to actually back up what they are saying:
You consistently fail to live up to the burden of proof. Moreso you haven’t engaged with all my points, my request for more at least three ways that Linux is better in general — yet you claim there are so many ways it would be hard to list them all. You keep redirecting your arguments, etc
It is very clear you aren’t arguing in good faith,
Linux is beating. Like a drumbeat. That’s the point.
No actual reasons why the Linux kernel has helped Android in any shape or form.
True wisdom from a true expert. I learn something new each day. Thank you.
I second your opinion. Today, Linux distros with Gnome, KDE or Deepin, are rich in functionality. They have great support from the community. They are not privately held, and we are assured they will not be.
I definitely do not have long term trust of Google and fuchsia. One day good support, the next day, dropping support, or going private for paid support versus donation support..
It is not only the users, application developers as well.
GNU/Linux afficionados like to pat themselves on the back for the use of Linux kernel on Android, while the fact is that the userland is complety based on Java, Kotlin libraries, ISO C and ISO C++, nothing related to either POSIX nor Linux kernel.
Even for OEMs since Android 8, with Project Treble, the drivers aren’t supposed to be traditional Linux drivers rather Project Treble ones with binderized APIs.
The cold fact, is that only people rooting their devices, OEMs and Google themselves will ever notice the day Android runs on top of another kernel.
Somehow i doubt that. Fuchsia will highly likely have issues with portability, lack of drivers beyond some tightly controlled use cases … In the end people will start to notice they are being limited.
Project Treble is based on the same IPC mechanisms as Fuchsia drivers, guess why.
I remember when i first read about Project Treble. A couple of years back. At that time i was rather enthusiastic about it. Fast forward a couple of years. Hard to say it benefited me in any meaningful way. That is from an average consumer point of view that wants to have more control. Regarding Android upgrade process. It’s still the manufacturer, like Samsung, that has full control over it and usually such manufacturer will say up front on how many versions of Android some device will get. After device reaching EOL i can still go down some custom ROM path and lose the ability to use some apps and in addition there is a big chance the hardware will have some glitches, driver related. If Google would hence switch Linux with Fuchsia. I would highly likely be in exactly the same boat. I don’t believe i would get more control over this process. As for Fuchsia and Linux based Android using the same solution (like HAL/IPC …). In my opinion that is normal as is Fuchsia devs would need to reinvent more things. Like drivers being made for Fuchsia in some special way, that would only make it further less likely to ever run on some production ready device like Android already does.
Exactly.
I wonder how many people pitching doom & gloom scenarios would have the same to say were Fuchsia not a Google creation. I have a feeling some of the frowny faces would turn into smiles. Am I a fan of Google? No. Do I think Google is motivated by pure intentions? Not likely. But, that doesn’t mean Fuchsia is automatically the devils work and inherently bad for users. It’s not impossible for Google’s interests and our own to align from time to time. I believe Google really is resolving some of the problems Linux has, and that this can be a push in the right direction. I look forward to learning more about Fuchsia’s innards and where it leads users. I can’t guarantee it will be great but haven’t seen any evidence it’s heading towards disaster either. One thing I have no question about it is the current status quo needs to be kicked in the nuts. If it takes Google to do that, you go Google!
No thanks. Linux and open source drivers any day.
How’s that working out for your cell phone?
friedchicken,
+1
This is exactly the problem.
@friedchicken
Ah, you see, you had to mentioned some specific branch of devices, mobile phones. You couldn’t just say Linux, to prove your point. Yes, i still remember similar debates from the Linux on desktop times. Now it just works.
@Alfman
From this point of view, we already have blobs and that is working just fine. But obviously you have to be OK with the blobs and lack of control over upgrades. To be totally happy with it.
I don’t think anyone got your memo that the Linux desktop “just works”, much less “for around a decade now”.
Edit: Question… Why did you delete the “for around a decade now” part of your `Linux desktop just works` claim?
@friedchicken
Are you now claiming Linux in combination with open source drivers doesn’t work on desktop? More or less any Intel hardware will do. To prove you otherwise. Are you claiming i don’t have control over update/upgrade procedure? That is false too.
@Geck
You’re confused. You claimed the Linux desktop “just works for around a decade now” and then walked it back. Then, you ran the opposite direction when I simply asked you why you did that. That seems like odd behavior if the Linux desktop is as magical, super-awesome and perfect as you seem to think.
Geck,
It’s obviously not working fine because we have no independent control over the rest of the kernel. The pragmatic solution is to add an abstraction layer between the device drivers and the rest of the kernel, otherwise known as a having a stable ABI. But then you should already know all of this.
if you give an impartial open source developer the choice between 1) a platform that forces you to use the manufacturer’s kernel with limited support and 2) an alternative where you have to use the manufacturer’s drivers, but you can build & upgrade the kernel independently, then one solution has a crystal clear advantage and unfortunately it’s not linux.
I’d rather stick with linux, but if linux refuses to evolve then I may end up switching to have more control over my devices. I don’t know if you appreciate just how ironic this is.
@friedchicken
When you reply on this site you have about 5 minutes to change your reply. I replied to you and after seen @Alfman answer and decided to reply to you both in the same answer. Now you are just nitpicking about fried chickens. Bottom line, yes i am claiming exactly that and any sane person with a bit of experience in this field should be able to confirm it. If you claim otherwise, fine, just don’t expect to get much argument from my side. Such debates settled around a decade back. Ever since Linux on desktop is considered to be a sensible option. You saying otherwise doesn’t change a thing.
@Alfman
If you build an operating system with emphasis on blobs and use Linux as a kernel, then most likely you introduced a real problem, yes. But Linux people never claimed otherwise. Hence do it properly, like Linux people do. And then complain if it won’t work as advertised. As for turning Linux in something that it is not. Who knows what will happen in lets say 10 years time. What likely will happen is we will get to find out, first hand, just how great Fuchsia OS reality really is. You know, that perfect blobs world and endless upgrades … Like some claim here and claim Linux is holding that back. And if all the people complaining here, about Linux, will continue to do that or will rather buy that Linux based device with open source drivers instead. As it’s not like Linux is going anywhere anytime soon. Hence no special need to guess, lets just find out.
@Geck
Simply believing something doesn’t make it true. A whole lot of Linux users, myself included, disagree with you but you’re welcome to believe the Linux desktop has `”just worked” for the last decade`. You’re also welcome to believe the Earth is flat and the moon is made of cheese. Remind me again, how much of the desktop market does Linux hold? If it’s everything you claim, surely the answer is something to be proud of.
@friedchicken
It’s interesting you brought the flat earth argument up. The debate you are trying to have and the things you claim. That was already settled a decade back. Lets just leave it at that. But feel free to claim whatever is it you want to claim. Just don’t expect other people will waste much time on it. Stirring up the old soup.
@Geck
If “That was already settled a decade back”, why isn’t there a single person agreeing with you? Oh and btw, why did you dodge my question? You seem to have a habit of doing that. I’ll give you another chance…. “Remind me again, how much of the desktop market does Linux hold? If it’s everything you claim, surely the answer is something to be proud of.” Surely you don’t think me asking you such a basic question is “stirring up the old soup”.
@friedchicken
You said open source drivers are more or less non existent on mobile (ARM). I said but you see, you had to use some specific branch of devices. You couldn’t just say Linux in general. After i gave you an example. Try Intel on desktop or in server space. Point being open source drivers on mobile front will happen sooner or later. Just like it happened on desktop and elshwere. And back then, when it was about desktop, people like you claimed otherwise and frequently mentioned 1%. Their efforts were to no avail.
@Geck
What do you mean I had to use some specific branch of devices? The starting point for Fuchsia is as a replacement for (Linux-based) Android of which hundreds of millions of mobile devices use. Why _wouldn’t I_ reference mobile devices? Better yet, why are you talking about desktops and servers at all right now?
You think open source mobile drivers “will happen sooner or later”. It surely isn’t going to happen any time soon or with Android as the dominating mobile OS – history and present-day has already proven this. You then seem to claim `people like me`, whatever that’s supposed to mean, wrongly said desktops won’t get open source drivers – I guess that’s what you’re trying to claim now anyways. I have never made that claim here or anywhere, ever.
Also, since you love talking about open source Intel Linux drivers so much, you’ll be sad to know that of the 3 different Linux boxes here using the i915 Intel driver, two of them experience i915 driver crashes. It doesn’t happen daily but it does happen more often than every blue moon.
You seem to be very sensitive to any criticism of Linux, like it’s unbearable somehow. I don’t know why that is but it’s not doing you any justice considering how many people you’re trying to defend yourself with. I don’t think there’s much point in continuing this further. You’ve made it clear you won’t answer any questions or back your claims with actual proof of anything. There’s nothing wrong with having opinions but if you’re just using the discussion to declare how amazing you think Linux is, you’re wasting your time & everyone’s.
@friedchicken
I see now you claim your Linux desktop rig is constantly crashing. OK i believe you, but mine is not. As for mobile phones, yes, some of us will persist until a decent mobile phone with Linux and free and open source drivers is made available. With or without Google. Don’t rally care if market share will be 1% if it will be a decent option. And we for sure won’t ask people saying otherwise for their permission to be vocal about it. Until that day comes.
@Geck
No, I didn’t claim my “Linux desktop rig is constantly crashing”, not even close. What I _did_ say was very clear though and the fact you turned it into something extreme proves …. you know what, never mind. I’m not interested in having further dialog with your imagination.
All in all i feel that people that wish to use Fuchsia will for sure get a chance to do so. If willingly or not, that is another question. But as for some of you Linux represent the main problem of Android i guess you will end up being happy. In this new Google made Fuchsia reality. Some of us will likely get a chance in some foreseeable future. To buy a decent mobile phone that is Linux based with free and open source drivers. After we can meet and compare, who got the better end o this deal we made. We can compare notes like real fanboys!
Which cell phones run Linux using free and open source drivers again?
I don’t expect a reply because this person clearly has zero relationship to Android development and you’re quite right: there are currently zero smartphones which are 100% open source and don’t contain any closed firmware/blobs/etc.
If you two really want to debate please learn to read first.
A very nice profound argument!
You two are just too smart for me, that is the problem. Lets just leave it at that.
Anyone with a Nest Hub device is already running Fuchsia (new devices ship with it, older devices were upgraded automatically this month). The UI looks/works virtually identical between the older Linux-based OS and Fuchsia.
In the end that is a good thing. Most people here claimed Linux is the problem and Fuchsia is the solution. Best to test such claims in practice. People likely got asked if they wanted such upgrade and have much control over it? Things like update and upgrade procedure are now for sure better, faster and safer device is the outcome … Or not. Best to wait and see if the claims people made in this thread, against Linux, where true or bogus.
Geck,
*Correction* We know that the problems with linux are true regardless of what happens with fuchsia in the future. Fuchsia is a big unknown for most of us and we don’t really know the direction google is going to take it in. Suppose fuchsia were to become awful and therefor not become a competitive threat to linux, that in itself does not make the linux problems ago away. Fuchsia’s failure would not help me build a mainline linux kernel for my phone.
It seems like your end goal is that linux wins out regardless of fixing the problems. But that’s a very different goal than maximizing user benefit of open source on real world devices.
As we discussed mobile phones. My end goal is to use GNU/Linux on a decent mobile device (hardware and software vise). And for the device to have free and open source drivers included in the Linux kernel and for the device to be unlocked and basically under my control. With or without Google i am sure that we will get to there eventually. After we can discuss this further if it is crap or not. Compared to Fuchsia and other competing kernels and operating systems. And compared to current situation where Google took Linux and was pragmatic about driver blobs. In my opinion that was an oversight on their side and with driver blobs they will always be building a solution on a rather bad foundation.
Geck,
That’s fine, but your goal isn’t the problem. Insisting on a design that often blocks owners from independently replacing their kernel in practice is diametrically opposed to your stated goal.
You didn’t answer this before, but how long would you have us all wait? Bare in mind we’ve already been waiting over a decade.
I’d like for you to answer this hypothetical question seriously: Say we lived in a world where manufacturers never end up opening their blobs ever under any condition. Would you agree that tethering the kernel to these blobs will actually cause greater harm than good for open source users?
@Alfman
I never said you all have to wait. What i said is most people don’t care anyway, that is what i said. And i said some of us are patient enough and will do just that. That is breath the polluted air when there is no other alternative but be vocal about it and say up front it’s crap and we want to breathe clean air.
Geck,
Being patient implies waiting, and we’ve been EXTREMELY patient already. How many more decades would you have us wait for a kernel that can be independently upgraded?
I know why you are choosing to avoid all the questions and I don’t blame you for that. You yourself realize that your plan isn’t foolproof and so you can’t have us asking too many questions of it. You know, I wish the world were different too, but at some point you have to move on and do the best with what you have.
If this initiative can persude the Linux hair shirts to create a stable ABI and the C/C++ hairshirts to refactor C/C++ so it doesn’t drive coders up the wall this will be something.
You never know what will happen in the future but i somehow doubt Linux will change to be Fuchsia alike anytime soon. If that is a good thing or not time will tell. As most of the people here claim Linux was the main problem with Android and Fuchsia is the solution. As we now have both, best to see in practice on how much of that was true and exactly how much of it was some random bogus claims.
Can you point me to the people who are saying that that Linux is the problem? I don’t think you can justify the comment that it is most of us. I think the best you get is some discussion of the unstable ABI, and discussion about userland drivers.
For start just read comments here to get a picture.
I have, and once again you don’t answer a question and just redirect. Worse you are repeating yourself and not being interesting about it
Like you? You made like 10 comments already an provided 0 value. Sorry but i have no intention to satisfy your need to talk about nothing anymore. My claims are all over this discussion. Feel free to argue with them if you want to. Or lets just agree we disagree up front. As you didn’t say one meaningful thing it’s agreeing or disagreeing about nothing anyway. Wasted time.
@Geck Your CLAIMs are all over this thread, your proof on the other hand is very hard to find
Now i get it. I entered a room full of Fuchsia OS fanboys and tried to sell them Linux. It’s basically just good old Linux vs. “You Name It” debate. Yes in the end people are entitled to be fanboys. As for what people claim and what will be the reality. Best to wait and see it happen. As it’s not like we have much say in it. What is missing ATM is a couple of years of Google made Fuchsia OS devices circulating and being used in real world tasks. For people to get a better idea on how good or bad Fuchsia or Linux based devices are. For them. Then we can discuss further if all are as happy as they claimed they will likely be in this debate. Or if there is still a place for Linux in this world.
You’ve provided zero reasons why the Linux kernel is better than Zircon and instead of being technical and arguing properly you’re calling people “fanboys”. Maybe finish school or something.
I clearly stated on multiple occasions Linux in combination with free and open source drivers is superior option and strategy to Zircon and driver blobs. From security, long term support, control … point of view. And from the point of view people claimed Linux is the issue for Android. But is not like people like you read that or responded to it. You just respond with some trash talk about Linux. That is what fanboys from the opposite camp usually do.
Geck,
But that’s the thing, I am neither a fuchsia OS nor google fanboy. Far from it. I’ve spent so much time building and supporting my own linux distro for my business clients. I am both proud of and thankful for what linux has accomplished. My criticisms don’t stem from hatred but rather concerns that we aren’t doing enough listening to the community’s needs. When I first joined linux I did so despite the arrogance of those saying it was better than everything else, not because of it. I don’t think everyone realizes just how much of a turn off that is to outside people. I took up linux because I weighed my options and it was the best tool for the job for me at the time and definitely not because I wanted to join a cult. Sometimes I feel this cult mentality is fogging our vision and harming our ability to meet people’s needs. Sure, we’ll always have those who are in the “linux for life” club, but to the majority of the world an operating system is just a tool and not a lifestyle. They’ll switch on a dime if they find another tool that does the job better.
Absolutely spot-on!
I don’t buy it. You are too enthusiastic about Fuchsia way and too critical about Linux way. You are basically saying turn Linux into Fuchsia as you are OK with device drivers blobs. Lets say Linux does it. Did we win the grand prize? Do you really want to eradicate the only real reason in existence that promotes free and open source device drivers by design? And is such design really flawed, from technical point of view? Or when used properly, not the way Google uses Linux in regards to device drivers, it resolves everything Fuchsia promises to resolve and beyond. Fuchsia can only be as good as that other part, driver behind the ABI. And Fuchsia has little or no control over it. Linux has that control by design.
Here we go again. There are no Linux/Android smartphones without blobs, period. At the same time with Linux you constantly have to keep your drivers up to date because Linux kernels developers don’t give a fuck about stable API/ABI.
With Zircon you can update the entire system and leave that proprietary crap be. With Linux, once you past the EOL you SoL.
Linux promotes pain for users and OEMs who refuse to open source their blobs because its their competitive advantage in a very competitive market. If you find a way to compete while making your smartphones 100% open source: GOOD LUCK. Only you’re here in the OSAlert website’s comments section talking utter nonsense which has zero relationship to the real world around us.
Again in your imaginary world.
I see you are one of those people. For you it is impossible to believe Linux will ever have free and open source drivers for mobile phones. Then i agree yes it is rather pointless if we discuss this further at this point in time. You just don’t believe it and that in the end is OK. Belief is something people are free to choose. It’s like saying we are breathing the polluted air and some claim you can’t do much about it. Others emerge not sharing the sentiment. Some going further and arguing more polluted air is the solution. As lets get real the air around us is polluted anyway, saying it doesn’t have to be is pure nonsense from some imaginary world and has nothing to do with reality. Right? But tell me something, when the time comes, will you or will you not buy and use such device? A decent Linux based mobile phone with free and open source drivers. Just tell me that and lets move on.
@Geck
“Again in your imaginary world.”
Why you keep believing in things which haven’t been true in 30 years of Linux existence is beyond me. And based on those beliefs you claim Linux is “better”. You may want to reconsider your attitude towards the real world outside us because you’re surely living in a fantasy.
I don’t plan to respond to people anymore, where they make like 10 comments with zero added value and claim on how they proved something. You proved nothing and just wasted everybody time and energy. And people that feel they are entitled to talk trash and feel other should put up with it. To those people like Forrest Gump once said stupid is as stupid does. I feel that i shared enough claims with value in my comments. And nobody debunked most of it. I will finish my participation with a question and i won’t respond to comments under this news anymore. As we already discussed all the rational things. Google is now at a turning point. At beginning they took Linux and went the pragmatic way to promote blobs. Blobs introduced issues for them and now they decided to change things. Lets say Google decides and produces two exactly the same mobile phones with the same specs, price tag and performance … and you decide to buy one. One is Fuchsia based Android with blobs and one is Linux based Android with free and open source drivers. Just tell me which one would you buy? The question is clear and straightforward and if you are not capable of answering this question that is your problem, not mine.
Geck,
Who is talking trash? I only want what I feel is best for linux and FOSS, no different than you. Anyways you can do whatever you please.
That’s not historically accurate though. Google didn’t build android initially, they bought it. There’s a nice summary of the timeline here:
https://www.androidauthority.com/google-android-acquisition-884194/
And secondly, the binary blobs are prevalent in linux devices everywhere. The reason we’re talking about this in the context of android is because android was so successful that it became the most used linux platform by a long shot so it. While android may get all the attention, the proprietary blobs are an unfortunate reality outside of android too. Many of my grievances stem from embedded linux SBC boards running closed kernels that can’t be modified either
I believe the only reason you are lashing out at google right now is simply because you’ve convinced yourself that Fuchsia is your enemy. Honestly though if you want a corporation to blame then #1 on your list should be Qualcomm & friends. They are the ones most directly responsible for all of these proprietary drivers. For better or worse they’re more than happy holding a standoff with you in perpetuity in order to keep things exactly as they are. And whether you intend it or not, you are obliging them by doing your part to keep linux from changing. This is the best outcome for them as it maximizes their control over a device’s usable lifespan and minimizes an owners ability to upgrade.
Ah, but unless you were speaking hypothetically your question actually has a lie in it, which I’ve taken the liberty of highlighting.
Hypothetically I’d prefer linux, but in the real world I’d tend to prefer whichever platform give me most control over the kernel.