By: cpcf
In reply to <a href="https://www.osnews.com/story/134099/apples-new-m1-pro-and-m1-max-processors-take-its-in-house-arm-based-chips-to-new-heights/#comment-10419190">javiercero1</a>.
There is a world outside of the Apple store!
By: Alfman
In reply to <a href="https://www.osnews.com/story/134099/apples-new-m1-pro-and-m1-max-processors-take-its-in-house-arm-based-chips-to-new-heights/#comment-10419106">Alfman</a>.
javiercero1,
<blockquote>Your continuous need to introduce inane unrelated arguments to cater to debates that only exist in your head degrade the quality of this site infinitely more than me referring to your generation.</blockquote>
Nope, sorry that's not how it works. You can cry about comparisons being unrelated all day long, but that does not make them unrelated and I can assure you many people for whom performance matters will be making the relations as well. Not only is it valid to do, but it's actually necessary in order to be informed.
By: javiercero1
In reply to <a href="https://www.osnews.com/story/134099/apples-new-m1-pro-and-m1-max-processors-take-its-in-house-arm-based-chips-to-new-heights/#comment-10419106">Alfman</a>.
Your continuous need to introduce inane unrelated arguments to cater to debates that only exist in your head degrade the quality of this site infinitely more than me referring to your generation.
This news item is about laptops using a specific family of SoCs. The fact is that neither AMD nor Intel have a mobile SoC that matches the CPU/GPU performance of Apple's premium tier mobile SoC, Furthermore that SoC also manages to match the performance of other mobile solutions using discrete components at a lower power envelop. All of that is factual information, which helps understand the context of the product: where it places in the performance scale of competing products, why it is disruptive, etc.
That there are some users out there that require more power than this SoC can offer is just a subjective qualitative argument that adds nothing to the debate. Because that applies to all mobile SoC regardless of vendor. In fact, that literally applies to any product.
By: Alfman
In reply to <a href="https://www.osnews.com/story/134099/apples-new-m1-pro-and-m1-max-processors-take-its-in-house-arm-based-chips-to-new-heights/#comment-10419137">sj87</a>.
javiercero1,
<blockquote>Most desktop parts are certified to handle Tj of 95C no problem. Server parts tend to be certified for Tj=105C. And automotive Tj-125C.</blockquote>
Do you have any sources?
All servers I've seen have take cooling to the extreme. Mine don't even have an option to run CPUs at these high temperatures. I'm looking at xeons right now from the same processor family. And while I don't know whether this is generally true, it seems that beyond 8 cores intel starts capping max temperatures per core. Take a look at these samples...
https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/details/processors/xeon/w.html
Xeon W-11155MRE 4C/8T 4.40GHz 45W 100C
Xeon W-1390T 8C/16T 4.90GHz 35W 100C
Xeon W-11955M 8C/16T 5.00GHz 45W 100C
Xeon W-1370 8C/16T 5.10GHz 80W 100C
Xeon W-3323 12C/24T 3.90GHz 220W 68C
Xeon W-3345 24C/48T 4.00GHz 250W 73C
Xeon W-3365 32C/64T 4.00GHz 270W 77C
Xeon W-3375 38C/76T 4.00GHz 270W 80C
For normal consumer CPUs, 80C is usually considered the healthy upper bound for normal operating temps even though intel puts the max at around 100C. I've seen it personally where a dead fan would cause CPUs to climb into the upper 90s and experience both throttling and crashing but it was quickly resolved just by replacing the fan. High temperatures does seem to have an effect on reliability.
https://www.pcgamer.com/cpu-temperature-overheat/
<blockquote>If you’re running stock and your CPU temperatures are hitting 80°C or higher, that’s a warning sign something isn’t working properly. Maybe a fan is dead, or thermal paste wasn’t applied properly, or your heatsink is super dusty. Most desktop CPUs should land in the 50-70°C range under load, so if you’re consistently pushing numbers into the 80s without overclocking, that’s definitely cause for concern.
...
Overclocking temperatures could in theory go as high as 90°C while still being ‘safe’, and the max temperature for many CPUs is listed in the 105-110°C range. But for long-term use, you’re much better off keeping things below 80°C in general and only pushing up to 85°C at the most.</blockquote>
So while I can believe that some CPUs may handle such high temps without error, I do think it's pushing their bounds and it's better to run at lower temps whenever possible. It would be informative to read modern research on this topic.
By: Alfman
In reply to <a href="https://www.osnews.com/story/134099/apples-new-m1-pro-and-m1-max-processors-take-its-in-house-arm-based-chips-to-new-heights/#comment-10419106">Alfman</a>.
javiercero1,
<blockquote>Boomer.</blockquote>
Every one of your ad hominem attacks degrades osnews, just stop it man.
<blockquote>I didn’t say anything about people not wanting more power.</blockquote>
So that's settled, you don't disagree with me that some professionals will want more than an M1 max like I've been saying. So it seems to me that you've got nothing more to disagree with me about.
By: javiercero1
In reply to <a href="https://www.osnews.com/story/134099/apples-new-m1-pro-and-m1-max-processors-take-its-in-house-arm-based-chips-to-new-heights/#comment-10419137">sj87</a>.
@sj87
Most desktop parts are certified to handle Tj of 95C no problem. Server parts tend to be certified for Tj=105C. And automotive Tj-125C.
On laptops the skin temperature is also used for mitigation. The usually average on Tskin=45C
By: javiercero1
In reply to <a href="https://www.osnews.com/story/134099/apples-new-m1-pro-and-m1-max-processors-take-its-in-house-arm-based-chips-to-new-heights/#comment-10419106">Alfman</a>.
Boomer, I didn't say anything about people not wanting more power. You keep going on tangential discussions that only exist in your head so you can be correct about stuff nobody is talking about except you.
By: javiercero1
In reply to <a href="https://www.osnews.com/story/134099/apples-new-m1-pro-and-m1-max-processors-take-its-in-house-arm-based-chips-to-new-heights/#comment-10419152">cpcf</a>.
Your word salads are fascinating, please tell me more about all those linux racks running FCP/Premiere/MediaComposer....
By: Alfman
In reply to <a href="https://www.osnews.com/story/134099/apples-new-m1-pro-and-m1-max-processors-take-its-in-house-arm-based-chips-to-new-heights/#comment-10419106">Alfman</a>.
javiercero1,
<blockquote>I keep reminding you about the topic at hand, and you keep interjecting that bizarre debate that only exists in your head.</blockquote>
No, you only say that because my point is an inconvenient truth. It's not just in my head either, obviously some people really will want more performance than apple's SoC is able to deliver. Heck I've already posted a link about an M1 user who wished he could use an eGPU to regain lost performance. It's likely going to be the same with the M1 max given what the specs appear to be. Since apple doesn't support eGPUs with the M1, it may not be the best option for pro users who want to be able to upgrade GPU performance.
Anyways if you want to argue that people don't want more power, I don't really care about that. People will go with whatever they want and whatever they choose is not my concern. My point was only that there are workstations with more power particularly with discrete GPUs for those who want/need it, and we've already settled that as true. So do you have anything else to talk about other than throwing regurgitated insults my way?
By: javiercero1
In reply to <a href="https://www.osnews.com/story/134099/apples-new-m1-pro-and-m1-max-processors-take-its-in-house-arm-based-chips-to-new-heights/#comment-10419106">Alfman</a>.
I keep reminding you about the topic at hand, and you keep interjecting that bizarre debate that only exists in your head.
This is a post about an apple laptop and the SoC power it. Instead you might as well be talking about the pricing of frozen orange juice futures.
It's always the same negging tangential nonsense with some of you old farts.
If it's an article about something that uses the cloud. Y'all have to talk about the desktop.
If it's something about Windows, y'all babble on about Linux.
If it's about Android, y'all go off on Windows Phone or Palm.
If it's about Linux, then it's a good time to talk about BeOS
If it's about powerful local compute, then everything now must be done on the cloud.
If it's about a laptop and a mobile SoC, let's talk about high end desktops and discrete components.
Some of you are the geek equivalent of an energy vampire. LOL.
By: cpcf
In reply to <a href="https://www.osnews.com/story/134099/apples-new-m1-pro-and-m1-max-processors-take-its-in-house-arm-based-chips-to-new-heights/#comment-10419101">javiercero1</a>.
Little Jimmy's 30s TikTok video or any other Final Cut Prosumer content is not really what Pro is meant to mean!
For years I was a Mac Pro advocate, one of my my side-gigs was managing a room full of professional operators and engineers producing reference grade scientific and industrial content. Apple basically discarded that sector for more than a decade, in fact almost two decades, then tried to win us back a few years ago with a new offering. We also had a fleet of MacBook Pro's we used in meeting rooms for review and approval meetings with content delivered off local NAS, Back then, way back then, the content was already way too big for a laptop to serve, nothing has changed.
But it's all too late for Apple, nothing they can offer in a single workstation is going to displace the rack of Linux servers that now deliver massively parallel processing performance at a fraction of the price.
A MacBook Pro type laptop followed along by a suitcase sized external drive is useless to professionals and not much more than some rich kids toy like a fancy watch or a nice fountain pen!
By: Alfman
In reply to <a href="https://www.osnews.com/story/134099/apples-new-m1-pro-and-m1-max-processors-take-its-in-house-arm-based-chips-to-new-heights/#comment-10419106">Alfman</a>.
javiercero1 ,
<blockquote>And I am keeping telling you that what you have been saying is irrelevant for the topic I was talking about: Neither AMD nor Intel currently have a SoC that matches the CPU/GPU performance of Apple’s M1 max.</blockquote>
Great, as long as you concede that discrete solutions can offer better performance, which you already have, that's good enough for me.
Now, if you want to argue that better performing solutions are irrelevant, well I think that's silly and highlights your own bias, but hey you do you.
By: javiercero1
In reply to <a href="https://www.osnews.com/story/134099/apples-new-m1-pro-and-m1-max-processors-take-its-in-house-arm-based-chips-to-new-heights/#comment-10419106">Alfman</a>.
And I am keeping telling you that what you have been saying is irrelevant for the topic I was talking about: Neither AMD nor Intel currently have a SoC that matches the CPU/GPU performance of Apple's M1 max.
I keep repeating it because It;s just bizarre how you always create these strawmen in your head so you can be right about something that wasn't the matter at hand.
By: Alfman
In reply to <a href="https://www.osnews.com/story/134099/apples-new-m1-pro-and-m1-max-processors-take-its-in-house-arm-based-chips-to-new-heights/#comment-10419137">sj87</a>.
sj87,
<blockquote>Modern CPUs seem to be able to handle around 90 Celsius, so it isn’t news that Apple chips can go that high as well.</blockquote>
Yeah, but the lifespan for electronics tends to be inversely proportional to the operating temperatures so there are good reasons to keep temps below max, and a lot of systems do. Then again I haven't seen comprehensive research on modern CPUs. That would be informative if you know of any.
Also we must keep in mind that the amount of power a CPU can use while staying under a max temperature will naturally vary with ambient cooling temps. So if we don't give CPUs enough headroom then performance may vary at different times of day, days of the year, etc.
<blockquote>Especially laptops will always be constrained on the cooling capacity even if they have fans and heat pipes built-in.</blockquote>
Agreed.
<blockquote>The remaining fact is still that Apple chips run cooler under “casual” loads than corresponding Intel chips will.</blockquote>
This has been true for a long time and is why I think ARM has been better for mobile in general. It's not just mobile though, even data center operators have shown interest in ARM clusters because their efficiency helps with operational costs including electricity and cooling.
By: Alfman
In reply to <a href="https://www.osnews.com/story/134099/apples-new-m1-pro-and-m1-max-processors-take-its-in-house-arm-based-chips-to-new-heights/#comment-10419106">Alfman</a>.
javiercero1,
<blockquote>Calling you a boomer is not an ad hominem, but a statement of fact. </blockquote>
Well, your facts are wrong, and the way in which your trying to use it as an insult is an ad hominem.
<blockquote>There’s no x86 SoC that has higher CPU/GPU performance than Apple’s M1 Max right now. Period.</blockquote>
We've already established that everyone's got doohickeys in different places. Great, but now it's time to move ahead and ask how well they perform. It's obvious the reason you're so apprehensive about moving forward is because you know the benchmarks don't favor SoC iGPUs including M1's. You had no problem comparing M1 max to discrete cards <i>when the benchmarks are favorable</i>, but when they aren't suddenly we can't...well that's hypocritical BS.
What happens when apple themselves decide their SoC is too thermally constrained to achieve better performance and they need discrete chips as well? I'm sure you'll be flip flopping everywhere in order to say that SoC doesn't matter after all.
The problem is that you have a preconceived opinion about who the winner is and the facts don't matter because you selectively cherry pick criteria and data suitable for you while dismissing everything else. Your thought process follows that of a flat earther; I am right to call out your lack of objectivity.
<blockquote>That there are higher performing discrete desktop CPUs or GPUs is irrelevant tot the context of SoC.</blockquote>
Great, that concession is all I'm looking for. Things might change in the future, but for now we agree that some users will get better performance elsewhere, which is what I've been saying.
By: sj87
In reply to <a href="https://www.osnews.com/story/134099/apples-new-m1-pro-and-m1-max-processors-take-its-in-house-arm-based-chips-to-new-heights/#comment-10418998">Alfman</a>.
Modern CPUs seem to be able to handle around 90 Celsius, so it isn't news that Apple chips can go that high as well. Especially laptops will <b>always</b> be constrained on the cooling capacity even if they have fans and heat pipes built-in. The remaining fact is still that Apple chips run cooler under "casual" loads than corresponding Intel chips will.