Only two days ago we were talking about the software and firmware issues at Framework, and today the company’s CEO has announced they’re taking some pretty big steps to address these problems.
When building products to last, it’s not enough to design the hardware to be repairable, upgradeable, and customizable. The overall longevity of devices as complex as modern notebooks also depends on how long the software and firmware continues to be useful. That includes compatibility updates to support newer generations hardware modules, fixes for bugs or compatibility issues found by end users, and especially patches for security vulnerabilities. We recognize that we have fallen short of where we need to be on software updates, and we are making the needed investments to resolve this.
We now have a dedicated team of engineers at our manufacturing partner and a set of internal stakeholders focused on ongoing software updates for all of our products, going back to our original Framework Laptop with 11th Gen Intel Core. In the past, we were reliant on ad-hoc availability of engineering time from our suppliers (basically borrowing staffing from whichever new product development we had ongoing). This was inconsistent and resulted in slow progress. With a dedicated team, there is no longer resource contention, and we are able deliver shorter turnaround times from discovering issues to resolving them.
Nirav Patel
They’ve also shared exactly how the development, testing, and release process new firmware releases will work, from identifying any issues to the final release to consumers, and they’re hiring new employees focused entirely on expediting this process. They also promise to support each device for as long as their upstream silicon vendors will, but they can’t give any guarantees on how long that will be since those upstream vendors aren’t sharing details like that.
All in all, I think this is about as good a response as you can get from an OEM, but as they themselves note, they’ll have to show their customers these aren’t just mere words. Assuming it pans out the way Framework is promising here, I think it’s a fair and customer-friendly process.
I think in order to buy something of that price for me, I have to trust either one of these three things
A) The company producing it will support it for its conceivable lifetime
B) The product does not require any future updates for me to use it to its fullest.
C) The cost of it is low enough such that the current value of it is worth the risk.
With framework, I was mistakenly under the assumption that B was the case. After reviewing the initial story, I’m not sure that’s true enough, and I don’t feel strong enough about A or C being true. I and most people here have probably been burned on purchases by large manufactures as well, which is why I think harder about this. Thinking about Nexus 7 tablets, and my misfortune with Lenovo laptops.
Bill Shooter of Bul,
+1, exactly this.
I didn’t used to be so sensitive about this, but I’ve been burned by it and now I try to make consumer choices that don’t get me trapped. It’s not easy though because there’s not always a lot of good choices.
What happened with the Lenovo laptops?
They were rather cruddy when Lenovo first took over, but the current stuff is much better then what they were selling.
Yeah, that’s probably not the case for most equipment. Business equipment is better then consumer equipment, but the OEM and I differ on what “conceivable lifetime” means.
There’s too much software in hardware these days for that to be true, and some security hole patch is probably going to nerf the hardware anyway.
I just buy refurbed equipment after it’s been out for a couple of years, so I’m not spending that much and know what I’m getting.
Flatland_Spider,
I do this as well, you can save a lot going used. But in terms of the support that we are talking about old hardware may not have a long support lifespan remaining regardless of the condition of the hardware. When hardware is supported by FOSS, this is usually not a big deal, but all too I end up wanting to use EOL hardware only to find that unsupported drivers/software are broken & unusable.
This is a valid concern, and it’s something which needs to be considered.
It’s also the first part of the reason I don’t have an L2 or L3 switch in my home network.
I might also do some unapproved things to the equipment anyway, so not having support is also a perk.
This is the second part of why I don’t have an L2 or L3 switch in my home network. No, FOSS OS support.
I try to only buy hardware which is FOSS OS supported, preferably mainline supported so I can get a full OS instead of something like OpenWRT. It does require time and effort, so I understand it’s not for everyone.
This leads into the crusade for Right to Repair and trying to get companies to open up their firmware and drivers, or documentation for other people to write drivers.
The situation was worse then what I thought. LOL
I thought there might be a team of 1-3 people at Framework working on the firmware/software side, but 0, wow.
There is too much software running in hardware these days to ignore that.
How long do Intel/AMD and whoever is the mainboard maker support their hardware with firmware updates? Is it fair to compare it with phones where there is a fixed end date (like: “Pixel 8 will get firmware updates from 2023 to 2030”) or do no such schedules and promises exist for desktop hardware?
j0scher,
It’s a good question. I’m looking at some of my older motherboards…
http://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/Z370-AORUS-ULTRA-GAMING-20-OP-rev-10/support
This was 3.6 years of updates, the final update was a security update
http://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/GA-EP35-DS3L-rev-1x/support
This was 1.2 years of updates
support.hp.com/us-en/drivers/hp-compaq-elite-8300-all-in-one-desktop-pc/5272027
This was 6.8 years of updates, the final update was a security and microcode update
Note this only proves the firmware support windows were at least this long. Naturally they won’t release new firmware when there is nothing to do. Also we should point out there’s a HUGE difference between x86 PCs and android images. We can typically use x86 hardware decades after EOL by installing a new OS on it (*). By contrast android and SBC devices like pixels generally stop getting OS updates altogether because the hardware and software are tethered (I’ve been a very vocal critic of this model).
* This used to be true at least prior to windows 11. With windows 11 microsoft started imposing artificial restrictions to prevent upgrading to windows 11. It remains to be seen if this was a one time event or if microsoft intends to do it regularly now. Note that since they are no longer charging for windows updates, MS have a financial to drop old hardware in order to increase new OEM sales.
It’s not really fair since a Samsung phone is like buying a Dell. It’s the final widget while a MB is a piece which is supposed to be integrated into a whole, and the OEM is supposed to support the widget however long they feel like.
The “OEM is supposed to support the widget” is the part Framework didn’t comprehend.
Business equipment, especially server stuff, is better about this since businesses demand timelines to know when equipment is going to reach EoSL and EoL.
Intel/AMD support varies between product lines. There are some lines designated for long term support. For Intel, looking up a chip in the ARK will say if it’s a long term part or not.
I only work on the widget end, so this is stuff I’ve noticed more then experienced.
As a Framework laptop owner, at least in part as a gesture of support for the values that these guys purported I can make a point about the experience owning one of these. The framework team hasn’t been flawless — that’s for sure. They are a startup with limited resources that made a choice to push hardware development at a very quick pace — yearly updates to the original 13″ laptop, completely different 16″ gaming platform under development very quickly after 1st product release. That meant that response to problems (both hardware and software) was often =glacial=. They just didn’t have the resources to support everything they were trying to do and it’s clear that they were too optimistic about how many problems they might have.
But thru it all they maintained a commitment to transparency and long term support and that’s why I’ll stick with them as long as they are around. I recently replaced my RTC battery with a bypass device to connect to the main battery. Having laptops that can’t power up after being left unused for long periods of time is an obvious problem — but I was extremely happy with the solution.
How many other laptop companies work with the community to debug the problem and provide hardware modification solutions free of charge for you to fix yourself at home?
How many other companies release a housing so that if you upgrade your motherboard you can make a mini-pc out of your old one? How many support a community of modders and makers that make stuff out of their pieces — which you can buy individually directly on their website.
Have there been other problems? Yup. Ports with excessive power drain, hinges that aren’t stiff enough, etc.
Maybe it took too long to fix some of these things, but in the end those guys were =always= committed to doing the right thing.
I’m in it for the long haul, for sure.
https://community.frame.work/t/rework-instructions-for-11th-gen-mainboards-to-enable-powering-the-rtc-circuit-from-the-main-battery/26922/351
for more information about the RTC bypass solution for those interested in the kind of things that they did.
You can also see that they originally came up with a =very= complicated solution that included trace cutting on the motherboard and some very fancy soldering that I would’ve been =very= uncomfortable doing. If I remember correctly the newer connection method came from a community member who had access to circuit drawings and found a better connection.