“The delay of Windows Vista means that computers sold this holiday season will predominantly be running Windows XP. Microsoft hopes that Vista won’t be far from the minds of new computer buyers, however, as they are pushing a new ‘stickering’ campaign aimed at informing customers that most of these machines are capable of handling Vista. The basics of the announcement were covered last week by Matt on M-Dollar, so I won’t repeat them here. Instead, I’d like to address a couple of concerns with the program, and highlight some little known facts about the new OS.” Update: A new CTP release of Vista is on its way.
All that company does is talk about what they can maybe do for you, if you’re lucky, in the future. That’s how they’ve won the position they are in: vapourware.
That’s how they’ve won the position they are in: vapourware.
In order to not make a complete idiot out of yourself on public forums, it is generally a good idea to actually research what the terms you use in a post mean.
Just a tip.
Then you ought to apply that tip to your own post. More often than not you spread nonsense, Thom.
from Wikipedia: “Vaporware (also called vapourware) is software or hardware which is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge, either with or without a protracted development cycle. The term implies deception, or at least a negligent degree of optimism; that is, it implies that the announcer knows that product development is in too early a stage to support responsible statements about its completion date, feature set, or even feasibility.”
Software assurance came out in 2001 along with Windows XP with a three year term agreement with promises of “upgrade rights to newer versions of software as they become available”. By 2004, there was still no desktop OS upgrade. If Vista gets pushed back at all, it will be 2007 again with no OS upgrade.
A 6-year contract promising something that never showed constitutes vaporware to me. Definitely a “negligent degree of optimism”. Even if it shows “on time” I think it’s still too little, too late.
Instead of upgrading their OS, they upgraded the Software Assurance plan with more benefits to keep people paying.
Look at the last part of what you quoted:
“that is, it implies that the announcer knows that product development is in too early a stage to support responsible statements about its completion date, feature set, or even feasibility.”
I suppose at an earlier point, you could call Vist vaporware. But at this point, it doesn’t hold true to the definition.
I thought Vista was being shipped to OEMs as well as corporates pre-december 2006? Or will it only be the larger OEMs who receive Vista to bundle with their PCs, leaving smaller organisations to follow the stickering scheme?
I thought Vista was being shipped to OEMs as well as corporates pre-december 2006?
You are just precious! Like Charlie Brown thinking Lucy isn’t going to pull the football away this time.
I guess you really only get an idea of what you need to run an OS after it is out and a consensus has formed among users. Or several ones in the case of Vista, depending on which version you have.
So this sounds a classic case of do some research on the net before shelling out. I wouldn’t trust Microsoft or the OEMs. The first has a vested interest in selling to you even though you don’t have enough power to do much more than stare at a login screen; the second has one in selling you more than you may need, for more than you may need to spend.
In any case, it’s all pie in the sky till Vista goes gold.
>In order to not make a complete idiot out of
>yourself on public forums, it is generally a good
>idea to actually research what the terms you use in
>a post mean.
Practice what you preach, Thom. Most of the more interesting features supposed to appear in Vista have been vapour (WinFS, completely jailed environment, et al). Vista itself is not available for purchase, which makes it vapour until the day that you can buy it off the shelf. It certainly won’t be installed on machines available for purchase with the Vista sticker on them this year, and that makes it vapour.
Or maybe you haven’t seen the various published articles comparing Vista to Duke Nukem Forever…? 3D Realms has released previews of that, too.
Edited 2006-04-04 19:33
Ah vapour… So I guess the copies of all the builds I have, or the copies of other websites’ builds are all fake? All figments of our collective imagination?
Yes, the pulled features from the thing– WinFS, and um, Monad for security reasons… That’s it. Yes, that is all that is being pulled from Vista. Nothing else. Nothing. If you think pulling two features from a product makes the product vapourware… Sure, go ahead. We’ll just stick to the real definition of vapourware in the meantime, ok?
Oh, and I’d love to have a playable demo of Duke Nukem Forever. But that cannot be done– want to know why? Because NO PLAYABLE DEMO is available. Vista is available all right, to thousands of testers. Thousands.
Oh man.. you mean.. you mean that beta of WinFS I have on my computer at home doesn’t exist?
Wow, that really messes with my head
Please point me to where 3drealms released any previews of duke nukem.
According to Ars, they’re still polishing the browser-based AJAX 3D Rendering code…
AJAX? 3D? Huh??
Special Duke Nukem Forever preview on Ars Technica revealed what’s taking so long – the game is going to be playable within a web browser.
It was dated April 1st.
How you got a 5 I will never know…but if you would go back and reread your post after having read other responses and done a bit more research about WinFS and the jailed environment which has been enabled now in the future releases of Vista betas or CTPs…then you would probably retract what you just spewed back there.
Vista itself is not available for purchase, which makes it vapour until the day that you can buy it off the shelf
Sorry, but you’re ignorant. Vista has been available through numerous Community Technology Preview releases (http://msdn.microsoft.com/windowsvista/downloads/getthebeta/default…) to many thousands of people. How did you suppose that magazine and website tech editors were able to review the preleases: Magic? Psychic projection?
Thom was right. Before you troll — or unintentionally troll by spewing your own ignorance — try doing a little research. There are enough idiots around here without more people piling on.
> So I guess the copies of all the builds I have, or
> the copies of other websites’ builds are all fake?
You seem to be confusing beta code with finished product. Again. Until it’s released, it’s like:
Duke Nukem Forever! http://www.3drealms.com/duke4/index.html
> Yes, that is all that is being pulled from Vista.
> Nothing else. Nothing.
And we are left with, what…? Forklift changes to most subsystems and a complete rehash of what is needed to code for a system which has thrown over a decade of experience out the window. The value to the consumer? Faster TCP/IP stack, some eye candy, and further soul-sucking DRM adware foisted off as a “more immersive experience.”
But it’s not available yet. Not in consumer form. Therefore, it’s vapour. For all we know, they’ll pull more features – or add some.
>Vista is available all right, to thousands of
>testers. Thousands.
I’m very impressed. But it isn’t a “playable demo,” it’s more like a “playable preview.” Obviously, you can’t see the difference, but I sure can.
Hey, did you also say that ZFS wasn’t vapourware? You still can’t use it, because it’s still too buggy for use and hasn’t been put into a full release. Are you actually in the software industry or are you just a glorified forum moderator, Thom?
Edited 2006-04-04 19:46
It is NOT like Duke Nukem Forever. There is nothing available on DKF. No screenshots, no videos, nothing. And the ones that did exist were removed from their servers because they did not represent the current state of development. That is in NO WAY comparable to Windows Vista.
Beta software might not be released software– but the beta stage is a fairly advanced state in a development cycle, my friend. After that– only release candidates, and in essence any release candidate (as the name implies) is a possible final release. So, you find software that is in the final stage of development, to be released in 7 months, vapourware, on the same level as a piece of software of which absolutely NOTHING exists, not even a proof-of-life?
That is not holding true to the definition. The definition of ‘vapourware’ is software that has been intentionally hyped (ok, check), not-avalable software in any advanced form (as in beta or RC)(not check), release dates officially announced (check) but not respected (not check).
Microsoft gave ESTIMATES for Vista’s final release date– but only stated ONE official release date (the November 2006/January 2007 combo), and at this point you have no way of knowing whether they’ll respect that date or not. And seeing missed deadlines (official release dates) is a core part of the definition of vapourware, Vista simply does NOT fit the definition.
Keep preaching that there are only minor changes here and there. Keep making a fool of yourself.
It’s funny how much you downplay the stuff you did list. “Forklift changes”.
Do you know how much change there actually is? Yeah? Where did you get that information? Slashdot?
>Keep preaching that there are only minor changes
>here and there. Keep making a fool of yourself.
>It’s funny how much you downplay the stuff you did ?>list. “Forklift changes”.
>Do you know how much change there actually is? Yeah? >Where did you get that information? Slashdot?
Really?Then what are the changes?You didn’t mention any.Not like it will matter.Businesses and gamers will buy PCs preinstalled with Windows Vista,the geeks will get Linux,and most average consumers will either get Vista or Mac OS X.
– Rewritten audio stack
– Rewritten network stack with more low-level control for firewall and other network apps
– Windows Presentation Foundation – new graphics subsystem (that alone is huge)
– WinFX – new API intended to replace Win32 eventually. Includes Windows Communications Foundation and WPF, and other stuff too
– XPS – basically a new printing subsystem and new Color System (mms://wm.microsoft.com/ms/msnse/0511/25766/print_xps_2005_MBR.wmv)
– Improved task scheduler which lets you schedule things based on events instead of just at a certain time.
Want more?
There are two kinds of people in this world, Blondie. Those that listen to reason, and those that actively shun it.
The ones who shun, will never go out of their way to understand what they’re talking about. They’ll continue making their arguments until the cows come home, no matter how baseless they are.
Sadly, it’s a waste of breath to even try
I’m not Microsoft’s greatest fan, but everything they’ve delivered (that I’ve used, which admitedly isn’t very much) since (and including) Windows XP Pro … has been fairly decent. I don’t think they’re the king of the Bad Corporations any more – they’ve passed that crown on to Sony.
(edit: if you were wondering, that was a long-winded way of saying “kudos for trying, but I don’t think he’ll listen”
)
Edited 2006-04-05 03:39
and Sony has been convicted for an illegal monopoly on… what? They barely hold a candle to MS for credentials in evil.
So they’re only guilty if they’ve been convicted?
We live in a world where people think that “Not Guilty” and “Innocent” mean the same thing, and it’s high time that such perceptions were aligned properly with reality.
No modern operating system should only be “Capable” on a modern machine. Sure, they’re going to dumb this and that down for mom and pop machines, but if that’s the case, what is the point? The only thing left that isn’t removed from vista is a new driver layer and new filesystem layout. Otherwise it’s just XP.
> Otherwise it’s just XP.
Well, it’s XP-like. But it might as well be based off WIN32, because I can’t see *any* major publisher releasing software only for Vista, seeing as how there is close to 15 years of WIN32 systems out there (it first appeared in Windows 3.x).
> That is in NO WAY comparable to Windows Vista.
Except that neither are finished, and you can’t buy either of them in finished form for any amount of money. Microsoft has spent billion$ trying to buy it.
So, this a tomahto/tomayto kind of thing, Thom. Just because you wield the big moderator stick doesn’t mean I have to agree with you. It should be obvious that I won’t.
> but the beta stage is a fairly advanced state in a
> development cycle, my friend.
Don’t be presumptuous about our friendship. And advanced or not, it isn’t available for purchase in a finished form.
> After that– only release candidates
Release candidates are not releases. Get it? No, you don’t.
> to be released in 7 months
Or will it be? Are you sure? Or will it be a beta version still, leaving the customer to flounder for months with blue screens, memory leaks and lockups until they get it stabilized, like they did with every other operating system they’ve ever released?
Not that every operating system hasn’t got bugs, but we’re talking something you’re spending lots of money on here…
> on the same level as a piece of software of which
> absolutely NOTHING exists, not even a proof-of-life?
To the end-consumer buying a new system pre-installed with Windows XP, this will differ HOW? You are way out of touch with the Average Joe, Thom.
> intentionally hyped (ok, check), not-avalable
> software in any advanced form (as in beta or RC (not check)
No, it’s a check. Vista’s not available to the end consumer in a finished form, and they haven’t even told us what exactly will be in it when it ships (just hints and previews). It’s no different than watching a pre-release video of Duke Nukem – “this is not available but it will be coming soon, honest!” as far as the consumer goes.
You assume too much of the average computer user, Thom.
> at this point you have no way of knowing whether
> they’ll respect that date or not
Nor do you. But what I will tell you, is that if they put “Vista Ready!” stickers on premium machines, it will be pre-announcing a massive piece of software that is not ready to make good on the promise. It’ll probably work on those machines, no doubt, but when? And at what cost? Vapour!
> Vista simply does NOT fit the definition.
Thank you for re-stating your opinion. But we don’t concur.
> Keep preaching that there are only minor changes
> here and there. Keep making a fool of yourself.
WTF are you talking about? You obviously don’t know what “forklift upgrade” means! It’s geekspeak for “complete replacement,” where they pull the forklift in and carry the existing stuff away! “minor changes” my ass!
What I said was “value to the consumer” will not change much. Shake your head and think hard, what VALUE will the customer derive from a complete change of all the subsystems in Windows to end up with similar functionality; albeit with added features that most people won’t use? What VALUE will the changes add to those customers who end up using primarily WIN32 executables on Vista (which will be the majority of them, for years to come)?
Please, try to follow along here.
Edited 2006-04-04 20:20
Release candidates are not releases.
Oh, wonderful: The Great and Powerful Oz has spoken. Look, let’s make this simple. Any time that a company “releases” software to the public, that’s a RELEASE. Standing on your head or putting a dress on it won’t change that fact.
Look, let’s make this simple. Any time that a company “releases” software to the “public”, that’s a RELEASE.
It’s released to developers and enthusiasts by means of their *beta* program isn’t it?It’s obviously not finished,why doesn’t Vista ship before x-mass otherwise?
It’s released to developers and enthusiasts by means of their *beta* program isn’t it?
It’s not really a beta though. MS has a history of both making major feature changes from one “beta” release to the next and changing their target release dates, meaning (like the boy who cried wolf) that you can’t expect anything from them to resemble the final release until it actually shown to be the final release.
An infinite beta can also be vaporware. I can show you screenshots and videos and demos of what a game is “going to” (or might) look like forever, but until I actually code it, so what? It still doesn’t exist.
I think that’s what Shaman’s point is. He can correct me if I’m wrong.
So, according to Shaman’s definition:
Ubuntu 6 – Not in consumer form. Therefore, it’s vapour
SUSE 10.1 – Not in consumer form. Therefore, it’s vapour
FreeBSD 6.1 – Not in consumer form. Therefore, it’s vapour
KDE 4 – Not in consumer form. Therefore, it’s vapour
Gnome 2.16 – Not in consumer form. Therefore, it’s vapour
[add your own list here….]
Also, sharman, phrases used by a person is a direct projection of one’s level of civilization, your “Evil bxxxxxxx” is a classic demonstration.
Tom, don’t waste your time.
And your just as ignorant. None of those distro’s are trying to tell you that this hardware will run vista, and 50% performance and features.
KDE 4 doesn’t say you need this video card or Higher in order to run.
WinFS was supposed to be included with Chicago. And then BEOS died and it was forgotten about until 2000 when they tried again.
Do you remember what Chicago was code named for? Windows 95.
KDE 4 was announced what a year ago? Vista has been announced for 6 now, and 7 by the time it ships. I had/have high opens for Vista. I hope MSFT finally locks down the damn OS and filesystem internally. With the amount of secondary rewrites, and the fact that Vista CTP’s have already had viruses(the WMF flaw) out for them I am not so sure anymore.
“WinFS was supposed to be included with Chicago”
Wrong! The idea was initialy introduced in Cairo way back in 1991.
Do you remember what Cairo was code named for?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairo_%28operating_system%29
“Yes, the pulled features from the thing– WinFS, and um, Monad for security reasons… That’s it. ”
now that made me laugh !! they pulled those bits to meet a release date that is already 2 years behind behind schedule.
From the original spec of Vista made all those years ago, large chunks of it have become vapourware (as it usually does with Microsoft pronouncements)
now that made me laugh !!
Why? What more features have been pulled besides those two?
they pulled those bits to meet a release date that is already 2 years behind behind schedule.
Schedules change. That’s the point: their not fixed, and I have heard no one from MS saying they had a fixed schedule. The only official release date ever given is the current one, and since it lies in the future, it is not yet broken.
From the original spec of Vista made all those years ago, large chunks of it have become vapourware
Monad is not vapourware, as everyone can download it off of MS’ website. It was removed from Vista due to security concerns. WinFS will be released after Vista. There is no official release date yet.
In other words, neither of those two are vapourware. And it are the only two chunks that have been removed from Vista.
Vapourware, like bloat, is one of those terms everybody uses, but almost no one knows its true definition.
They should also put which version its capable of running, i bet in 90% of the cases, it’ll only be “Vista Home” or “Vista Crippled” as it should be named
>Ubuntu 6 – Not in consumer form. Therefore, it’s vapour
>SUSE 10.1 – Not in consumer form. Therefore, it’s vapour
>FreeBSD 6.1 – Not in consumer form. Therefore, it’s vapour
>KDE 4 – Not in consumer form. Therefore, it’s vapour
>Gnome 2.16 – Not in consumer form. Therefore, it’s vapour
First, lay off the drugs.
Second, you let me know when there’s a “Gnome 2.16 Ready” sticker on those machines. While you’re at it, please let me know when the Gnome source code is no longer available, when Ubuntu strongarms its corporate clients to force them to sell Ubuntu pre-installed, when KDE is available for sale with a mandatory online registration process, and when SUSE patches their OS only every second Tuesday even when their dirty secrets are publicly aired because SUSE has been tardy with fixing flaws. Oh, and do let me know when you can download a free, non-expiring copy of Windows Vista with all existing functionality with the addition of “unstable” software packages which have not yet been tested adequately by the maintainers to be in the “stable” distribution. I’ll be waiting, but I won’t be holding my effing breath.
Ah, so all this is because you dissaprove of Microsoft’s business practices and don’t like MS’s products, instead of it actually being a discussion about the meaning of the word vapourware (because the products listed are just as much vapourware as vista is, according to your ‘logic’ of course).
Why didn’t you mention that from day one? It would have spared me my valuable time.
Actually it’s “Vista Capable“. There is a difference. And based on their beta program and experience, they can make a rough estimate on what is and is not “capable”.
Many handi-capped people prefer to be called handi-capable.
Everyone talks about the minimum reqs for Vista and that it will not run Aero in full mode wit those reqs.
But what I wonder about, is what are the optimal reqs for Vista? What do you need to get everything running smoothly and everything actually running?
Nalle Berg
./nalle.
But what I wonder about, is what are the optimal reqs for Vista? What do you need to get everything running smoothly and everything actually running?
It’s fairly simple. In order to get all Aero stuff, you need a DirectX 9.0 video card (Intel 9xx will already do), with a minimum of 64MB of video RAM, but 128MB is advised. RAM will have to at least be 256, but again, 512 is advised. Processor don’t need to be really new either: my Athlon XP 1600+ ran Vista just fine.
In fact, not even a DX9 video card is nescesary. I tested Aero on a Radeon 9000 128MB (DX8 card), and Aero ran mighty fine (on that same Athlon/512MB machine). In order to get Aero to start on a pre-DX9 card you have to set a few registry hacks (Google for that info).
Basically, if you have to ask the question, then you can’t afford it. Every release of Windows I’ve seen has only been optimal on system specs at least double the recommendations.
–bornagainpenguin (eagerly waiting this ‘Ubuntu 6’ someone mentioned)
Basically, if you have to ask the question, then you can’t afford it.
BS. The cost of a Vista-optimal video card will be less than $100 by the time the OS ships — probably more like $50. Nice try.
…by the time the OS ships…
That’s the question.
>Why didn’t you mention that from day one? It would have
>spared me my valuable time.
So, the title “evil bastards” didn’t strike a note with you at all?
Edited 2006-04-05 12:11
…and I can use my DSL again (anyone in Ontario & Quebec, you can thank me for pinpointing why you couldn’t PPPoE connect last night trying to log into DSL), I’ll address a few comments:
>- Rewritten audio stack
How is this value compared to XP? Why wasn’t it done properly in the first place…? This is a replacement that presumably works marginally better, not a ground-breaking improvement, and adds virtually nothing for consumer value.
> – Rewritten network stack with more low-level control
> for firewall and other network apps
Oh my. Shouldn’t that have been in Windows 10 years ago, since it was based on BSD (which has PF)? This is not value, it’s more like coming into this century. Again, a replacement with moderate improvements, not a compelling reason for the consumer to buy.
> – Windows Presentation Foundation – new graphics
> subsystem (that alone is huge)
Huge how? How will that add value to the end consumer compared to what’s there today? Don’t say eye candy… will it be more stable? Will it be noticably faster at the tasks people usually do? I have my doubts, the cynic in me says that it will only be faster at the eye candy features, not that it’s a bad thing but hardly revolutionary. Will the consumer’s existing applications work as expected, including the expected performance?
> – WinFX – new API intended to replace Win32 eventually
Again, how is this value to the consumer? Will it add any features that count to the consumer? And what will Win32 apps run like, which will be the vast bulk of what Vista will need to support? It may be better engineered (or not), but it doesn’t matter one damn to the end consumer unless it enables their applications or interface in some meaningful way. Developers don’t matter in that context, so don’t bring them up, please.
> XPS – basically a new printing subsystem and new Color System
Again, this replaces something that currently exists. This adds practically no value to the consumer, as only a handful of people do pre-press or final-press work on their computer – those that do have software that supports 4-colour seps and advanced printing. It’s not revolutionary in the least, although it might be nice to have it so I am not criticizing it in toto. Unless they lock out competition with it, which I highly suspect could be their following move.
I’m not saying it’s a bad features addition (unless they try to use it for lock-in), I’m just saying that it will not add value for the vast majority of consumers.
> – Improved task scheduler which lets you schedule
> things based on events instead of just at a certain
> time.
Oh, goodness, gracious me. What a revelation. I wonder what percentage of people will consider this useful. Or will this be just another band-aid for a filesystem that fragments with almost every write? Those sly dogs…
Edited 2006-04-05 12:36
Shaman, you’re only arguments are: ‘they should have done that 10 years ago’ and ‘it adds no value for the average consumer’? Come on, you can do better than that. Don’t you think that making the lives of developers easier will eventually lead to better applications– and thus value for the average consumer?
You sound like a CLI addict– which is fine with me, I really don’t give a rat’s ass. Just don’t downplay genuine improvements in products only because you hate Microsoft. You’re lagging behind; Google and Sony are the ones to hate now in the l33t h4xx0r world.
Hah, beat me to it.
It’s funny how people criticize Microsoft for making improvements. Are some things overdue? Yeah. Get over it.
There is value, and if you can’t see any, you’re choosing to not see it so it fits your agenda.
In fact, I’ll go one step further.
What value does Novell’s newest Desktop offer (the one that is coming out this year)? OS X 10.5?
I hate to bring other OSes into this, but you can turn the argument around on them too. What you find as a “value to consumers” in them may be useless/overdue/only a small change to other people.
Edited 2006-04-05 12:59
You’re lagging behind; Google and Sony are the ones to hate now in the l33t h4xx0r world.
Google?
Nah i love them.There’s no other search engine capable of delivering me such a wealth of information( no pr0n heh!).I couldn’t give the rats ass if some grunt admins are not worth their salt by not limiting what the grinders may or may not see.
If you don’t want to give away sensible info that’s stored on a PC you shouldn’t connect it to the net in the first place.You yourself are responsible for your information disclosure allso.
Sony? Yes, i agree.
First, let me point out that all you did was ask me for changes. “Value to the consumer” is another ballgame, and I don’t think I can adequately address that right now. I’m not going to pretend to know what is and is not important to the consumer, and neither should you. There are some things that have obvious value though.
Second, it’s funny how much you downplay these things. Anything that’s a nice needed improvement, you just brush off because “it should have been in Windows years ago.” Well it’s going to be now, so there’s your value, buddy.
How is this value compared to XP? Why wasn’t it done properly in the first place…? This is a replacement that presumably works marginally better, not a ground-breaking improvement, and adds virtually nothing for consumer value.
1. Moved out of the kernel (at least some of it), which will provide better stability.
2. Being able to control the volume of individual apps.
Is that enough value to you?
Oh my. Shouldn’t that have been in Windows 10 years ago, since it was based on BSD (which has PF)? This is not value, it’s more like coming into this century. Again, a replacement with moderate improvements, not a compelling reason for the consumer to buy.
10 years ago when IPv6 wasn’t around? Yeah..
Huge how? How will that add value to the end consumer compared to what’s there today? Don’t say eye candy… will it be more stable? Will it be noticably faster at the tasks people usually do? I have my doubts, the cynic in me says that it will only be faster at the eye candy features, not that it’s a bad thing but hardly revolutionary. Will the consumer’s existing applications work as expected, including the expected performance?
1. Potential – there is more potential (also partly thanks to XAML) with what developers can do with the graphics subsystem now and how they can present the applications.
2. Platform – Kind of ties in with potential. It’s a better and easier platform to develop for. It makes more sense. It let’s you worry about more important things.
3. Subtle visual differences – Things like flicker and white boxes when moving a window around fast are gone, because it’s handled at the low-level now. It’s subtle, but it’s a better user experience in the end.
4. Performance – Before, you were pretty limited with what you could do graphically, because performance was a problem. Having transparent windows (yes, they are abused sometimes) was a performance issue, now it’s not. Subtle visual cues were also pretty much out of the question, AND a lot harder to do. Now they are not.
You may think it’s all “eye-candy”, but visuals are very important. They provide the first impressions of things for users (right or wrong).
Again, how is this value to the consumer? Will it add any features that count to the consumer? And what will Win32 apps run like, which will be the vast bulk of what Vista will need to support? It may be better engineered (or not), but it doesn’t matter one damn to the end consumer unless it enables their applications or interface in some meaningful way. Developers don’t matter in that context, so don’t bring them up, please.
Consumers won’t know what it is or how it affects them. But developers will. When developers start to harness the new API, you will see some gradual improvement in software. Consumers won’t know where that improvement came from, but it will be WinFX.
Again, this replaces something that currently exists. This adds practically no value to the consumer, as only a handful of people do pre-press or final-press work on their computer – those that do have software that supports 4-colour seps and advanced printing.
I won’t pretend to know what value it might offer to consumers overall. But an improvement is an improvement.
Oh, goodness, gracious me. What a revelation. I wonder what percentage of people will consider this useful. Or will this be just another band-aid for a filesystem that fragments with almost every write? Those sly dogs…
I never pretended it was a “revelation” or anything huge. But there are people out there who use Windows who will find a very good use for it.
A lot of these things are subtle or behind the scenes things that will only be noticed when ISVs start to “exploit” them (no, not malware, so keep your lame jokes to yourself).
Do I think everyone should upgrade to Vista from XP? No. If you’re happy with XP (or whatever you use), then by all means keep using it. But don’t knock people who wish to use Vista, and don’t knock it’s “value” until you’ve (a) used it (b) given it time to sink in and see how people react to it and how people use it.
Sorry, can’t resist this one.
You may think it’s all “eye-candy”, but visuals are very important. They provide the first impressions of things for users (right or wrong).
For all those people that are considering switching to Windows, right?
You guys are so out of touch.
First, the only developers that aren’t going to be using WIN32 as their environments for at least five years (and probably more like 10) are going to be Microsoft, a few shareware developers and those people making vertical applications for their own specific needs. Everyone else programming specifically for the Windows platform is going to use WIN32. Why? No developers and software houses are going to throw away the vast majority of the installed market base. If they do, good luck to them! I suspect that Microsoft will tie themselves in knots with incentives to develop for Vista. Those that shackle themselves to that will give away literally hundreds of millions of opportunities to sell their software, and they’ll be throwing away their investment in WIN32 experience/training.
Maybe you think they’ll develop for two entirely separate code models when one is supported for both environments and has a vastly larger installed base? Hah! Hahaha!
So much for winning over all those developers. More likely, they’re going to switch to something OS-agnostic like QT4, Java, etc. so that they won’t have to go through this pain again.
Re: the evolutionary changes in Windows. My point was that the changes you describe, by and large, are done in an incremental fashion on all other operating systems. Microsoft makes massive changes every few years (what is this, year six for Vista development?) and then calls them revolutionary, when that isn’t the case. I laugh at the pace of their development and marvel at the practice of changing practically everything in the OS except the lowest underpinnings, and then ending up in more or less the same place with some added eye candy. I mean… ooh… individual apps remember their previous volume settings, be still my heart!
I’m not saying Vista will be bad. I’m not saying that the changes aren’t for the better (for Windows users). I’m just saying that for the average user, Vista will be more or less irrelevant, with Ballmer’s fascination with DRM making it less relevant still.
Advertising it at this point on consumer computers is both distasteful given Microsoft’s legal convictions for monopolistic strong-arming and smacks loudly of vapourware. Oh yeah, and I’m laughing at the evil bastards for what’s coming to them.
Edited 2006-04-05 15:16
Grow up man.. get a girlfriend. Find a hobby. You look pathetic. I don’t know which platform you are supporting/using, but I promise you, anybody can make the same argument with every single release of your favoured platform. Computers are all about evoloutianry changes, with some revolutanary thrown in here and there. Every single of them evolve, just like you and i did. I promise you i can make the same arguements you have made over this thread against almost all OS releases, including OS X 10.5, Suse 10.1, Ubuntu 6.0, etc, etc. I am not a great fan of MS, but i can tell you one thing, don’t underestimate them. They are masters of releasing good enough software which meets consumers immideate needs.
Again, i repeat, you look pathetic. Get a life, get a girlfriend or get a hobby.
>/sarcasm
Don’t forget to upgrade your hardware ladies and gents! </
>Again, i repeat, you look pathetic. Get a life, get
>a girlfriend or get a hobby.
What a well-considered, convincing argument.
Actually, your post defines your argument, now that I think about it. It reminds me of a Simpson’s skit about the crap-flinging monkeys…
How about an example of what OS shows the improvments you are looking for,
If vista is worthless, what is the best out there???Every os seems to put “improvments” in there next release and microsoft seems to be the only one getting dinged for it.
It took them way to long to put out there new product, But i am betting there new product will be far ahead of what every one else relases when they rewrite alot of the system.
Look at apple. osX was worthless for more the one of there releases.
You get the same thing with new parts of linux when they are put into a distro.
At lease microsoft will make there os corprate ready at the time of the release…
Edited 2006-04-05 16:42
>How about an example of what OS shows the
>improvments you are looking for, If vista is >worthless, what is the best out there?
That’s some pretty one-dimensional thinking.
Any OS that supports standards and gets incrementally updated to fix its shortcomings without requiring a forklift upgrade gets my vote. Oh, and one that also does what I require of it without trying to hobble me with DRM and proprietary formats. Apple is starting to head down the wrong path WRT DRM, though.
>Every os seems to put “improvments” in there next
>release and microsoft seems to be the only one
>getting dinged for it.
Every OS that counts in this new century does incremental (some, daily) updates. Sadly, Solaris isn’t one of those… much grief over the years having to shut down all the RAID devices and save the metadata in a safe place, then rebuild it all, just to update the OS.
Solaris 9/10 are much better, at least. I’m guessing you have no real experience beyond Windows, so I’m probably wasting my time with this line of dialogue.
>It took them way to long to put out there new
>product, But i am betting there new product will be
>far ahead of what every one else relases when they
>rewrite alot of the system.
I assume that you mean to say “realizes” with your mangling of the English language, but I’m not sure. If so, then you couldn’t be further from the truth, because Microsoft has done its best to let us know what the big changes are going to be in Vista. And for the most part, many people (myself obviously included) feel that those changes are mostly irrelevant, or worse, disadvantaging, to the vast majority.
> Look at apple. osX was worthless for more the one
> of there releases.
Look, Shakespeare, you can slag Apple all you want, but they’ve built OSX into one of the nicest single-user operating systems available, if not the nicest. They’ve built in more power than Windows will likely ever have, while keeping the interface simple, responsive and attractive. They do their best to follow standards and are openly friendly to the GPL/Open Source world. OSX (and Apple) isn’t perfect, but it’s very good. What’s more to the point in this conversation, they built it from the ground up, then polished it incrementally, in roughly the time that Microsoft has taken to evolve an existing operating system into Vista… errr… wait… Vista hasn’t been released, my bad!
> At lease microsoft will make there os corprate
> ready at the time of the release…
That has yet to be seen.
there/they’re/their <— please learn the difference
>>That’s some pretty one-dimensional thinking.
That is avoiding the question.
>>Any OS that supports standards and gets incrementally updated to fix its shortcomings without requiring a forklift upgrade gets my vote. Oh, and one that also does what I require of it without trying to hobble me with DRM and proprietary formats. Apple is starting to head down the wrong path WRT DRM, though.
Every os in production does updates, and bug fixes.
osx, windows, and the rest of the Linux boxes..
DRM? So that answers my question. Everything oss huh? You could have just stated you don’t like commercial software right off the batt. Would know where to lump you.
Apple may have built it from the ground up (and no they didn’t do this they bought a company and used that…) but it started off crap. their first couple versions of there os sucked, and were worthless to most people.
a company like Microsoft would not be able to pull that with out getting their ass handed to them.
Apple released a software that was as close to beta as you could get and people bought it, what a joke, I will agree their last could releases were great, for a simple to use, os. I like how much of it is all under one company making everything just work, Hoping Microsoft is able to follow that, if they are allowed to.
But now that people are seeing Apple as not oss friendly I guess that they will become hated by you as well huh?
you don’t seem to give any oss that you like just that you already dislike vista, when it has not even been released yet..
Microsoft’s track record Shows when they release their of it is corporate ready
>Any time that a company “releases” software to the
>public, that’s a RELEASE.
Clueless! Let me know when it shows up pre-installed on computers, without the time-based expiration, and we’ll talk, fanboy. Hell, I’ll even settle for the shrink-wrap box, I’m feeling generous.
Edited 2006-04-05 17:57
>I think that’s what Shaman’s point is. He can
>correct me if I’m wrong.
I’m happy that someone is paying attention, at least.
> That is avoiding the question.
It’s a bad line of questioning that demonstrates a singular inflexibility of mindset.
>Every os in production does updates, and bug fixes.
>osx, windows, and the rest of the Linux boxes..
Updates and bugfixes are not equivalent to major feature improvements done incrementally. Windows does not do this (in fact, most packaged software does not do this, or what would they sell you NEXT year?) The only time it has been done in Windows is with XP SP2, released mostly to appease those customers who bought Megabuck$ service update contracts with Microsoft but received no value from them.
> DRM? So that answers my question. Everything oss
>huh? You could have just stated you don’t like
>commercial software right off the batt. Would know
>where to lump you.
BZZZZTTTT!!!! WRONG ANSWER!! YOU LOSE!
DRM and commercial software are not mutually inclusive. There is DRM software (primarily decoders) available to OSS as well. DRM is evil, and if you don’t think so, you’ve drunk far too much corporate kool-aid. DRM rarely hurts the warez/hackerz crowd but it often hurts the end consumer of the legitimate copy (of software, video, music, etc.) who is treated much like a criminal as a consequence. Same goes with game copy protection, I bought my copy of Galactic Civilizations II, entered my code and now can play it from my hard disk without a CD – and I can back up my CDs. Kudos to Stardock for figuring it out!
DRM and proprietary formats are a lock-in strategy both for the more evil software vendors (Microsoft can stand tall in that crowd) and for the media producers which would love nothing better than to charge you a pay-per-use fee on anything they produce. If DRM continues down its path, be prepared to require an Internet connection to watch DVDs you purchase and find a pay-per-view fee in the mail. That’s where DRM is headed.
This is far more of a consumer rights issue than a software issue, and it isn’t obviously limited only to Microsoft. As far as proprietary protocols and formats go, they’re just a bad idea, intended for customer lock-in. If TCP/IP was a proprietary protocol stack, there would be no Internet, but if Microsoft had created TCP/IP (HAH! as if Microsoft could), we’d all be viewing this through “MSN<tm> 2006<tm> DRM-Enabled<tm> MSN Explorer<tm>: Click<tm> here to Shop at MSN!<tm>” If you think that’s far-fetched, you haven’t been paying attention.
Am I a believer in OSS? Any thinking consumer is. That does not mean I don’t buy commercial software when it’s good, fills a need and doesn’t try to lock me in. Like our accounting software does.
>Apple may have built it from the ground up (and no
>they didn’t do this they bought a company and used
>that…) but it started off crap. their first couple
>versions of there os sucked, and were worthless to
>most people.
Oh please. Compared to what? Windows ME<tm>? Are you kidding?
> a company like Microsoft would not be able to pull
>that with out getting their ass handed to them.
Or maybe, just maybe, you’re talking directly out of your ass. To prove my point, I will again mention Windows ME<tm> Need I say more?
> But now that people are seeing Apple as not oss
>friendly I guess that they will become hated by you
>as well huh?
I haven’t seen evidence that Apple has turned on its OSS partners at this point. Last I remember anything of the sort, it was the KHTML team complaining that Apple coders aren’t providing them with usable patches.
DRM, on the other hand, could turn me from Apple. I won’t deny it. DRM is a pox on the software community, and it’s one of the only areas of discussion where I can agree with Stallman. It’s evil. It restricts the consumer’s rights. I want nothing to do with DRM.
Hypothetical: You download a movie from MoviesRus.com and watch it. You paid $9.95 for the movie and it tied your Internet connection up for a few hours. OK. So you go to view it, and up comes a little box that says “Please type in the code provided to you on the web page to view this movie.” OK, no problems, you saw that on the page, and you follow through. You start the movie but something comes up and you have to stop it. Next time, you start the movie but something goes wrong and the computer reboots. Third time you start the movie and it comes up with a box that says “Movies may be viewed only with an Internet connection, please connect to the Internet and type in the code you received on our web page to active the movie.” So you do. You see your modem lights flash… and it fails. That’s when you find out that the company has gone out of business, because they were sued by a consumer rights group. You’ll never get to view that file, because the DRM is in your way. Kiss your $10 goodbye.
Think that’s far-fetched? I know a guy who had exactly that happen to him. Using the *existing* DRM, which is much less intrusive than what Vista has planned for us.
Still think DRM is a good idea? If so, you’re welcome to it.
>you don’t seem to give any oss that you like just
>that you already dislike vista, when it has not even
>been released yet..
Why should I limit myself to one OS, or one architecture? As I mentioned before, I’m not that one-dimensional. You certainly seem to be.
> Microsoft’s track record Shows when they release
>their of it is corporate ready
AHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
Oh!
AHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
What makes it funnier is that you think you’re serious!! Oh, that was rich! Thanks, you’ve helped make my day. Really! “Corporate Ready,” oh man, I’m going to laugh for days!
I’m browsing with my Corporate Ready Internet Explorer! Look at me go!! Hey, what’s this purple Bonzi thing and why would I want to re-mortgage my home? OMG free asian boobies, and all I have to do is click on this link…!! Why is my modem dialling, I have cable Internet??
AHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
AHAHAH!! Oh shit, my junior admin is looking over my shoulder and laughing at you too! This is so rich I had to edit and tell you how much we appreciate your humour!
Edited 2006-04-05 21:36