Submitted by The controversial discussion about the important of communications at the Haiku project continues, and seems to be heating up. The project recently announced a new marcom team, and now the team lead (Koki) is coming on strong to the developers. He claims that the new Haiku website now in development “looks awful, is disorganized, and it has no focus whatsoever”, and proposes to fix it by organizing it into marketing and development areas managed by each group (plus an open community area). Read on for a short summary written by OSAlert reader sogabe.Apparently the idea is to “allow marketing to manage the message to the outside world, the devs to freely produce all the technical documentation that is is required, and the community to have a place to express itself and feel part of the project”. However, the web developer in charge does not seem to like the idea, and wants marketing to just “only take care of articulating our goals and what Haiku is (in ‘About’) and writing good news items in the name of the developers and other team members”.
In one of the many posts on the topic in recent days, Koki also claims that Haiku has a “very inward centered view of things”, and states that he will propose to the admins that they publish at least a summary of the topics discussed and the decisions made on their weekly meetings, to make Haiku more transparent. Is Haiku having growing pains?
What happened to switching the site over to Drupal? Anyway, as for the actual organization of the community, see ubuntu.com.
It is switching to Drupal. For some reason the beta site is called plonetest, but it is Drupal.
Please feel free to mod my other respose down.
This kind of thing was bound to happen as Haiku increases in visibillity and nears a release. Ubuntu.com is an example of a community site done right, as is syllable.org
I hope they get over it. We could do with something like a revived BeOS.
Is it me, or are open source OSes more visible than any other desktop, proprietary OSes than Windows and OSX?
For those interested in the beta version of the new site:
http://plonetest.haiku-os.org/
I would recommend reading the discussion linked above, and following through the threads. I completely agree with Koki concerning the emphasis on marketing’s place when it comes to the new site. Sure it may have better features, but it definitely looks worse cosmetically. It seems very unprofessional, and items appear clumped together rather than separated.
I realize this is in beta form, and I view it as such. I just hope those responsible are truly receptive and get it ready properly for launch. Haiku looks and feels great in it’s early form, and I would expect the same level of detail from their web presence.
didn’t they just redesign the site like 2 years ago when openbeos was renamed haiku? why don’t they actually worry about the quality of their os instead. besides i think their current site is quite good.
I like the current site as well and do not understand why they are redesigning again…
However, people working on the website are not the same type of people working on the OS… there is a HUGE difference there.
I actually would prefer to see the new version. In the current one for example Image Downloads and other good stuff are perfectly hidden from users. Why there’s no just simple link “Downloads” – why do I need to look for Wiki, then look for downloads in wiki ? The most stupid idea I’ve ever seen. Even Microsoft does better.
Well you don’t need to redesign to do that, you add a couple of links.
As long as the people developing the website are not developing the operating system itself, who really cares what they do either way?
I agree with the sentiment that a pretty webpage with no operating system is not very useful, but I don’t see why there is apparently drama brewing over something this unimportant.
I’ve partaken in the aforementioned discussion, and I fail to see how it’s interesting to people outside of the Haiku community. (Unless you have an interest in webdesign or in the social dynamics of opensource communities.)
1. We’re disagreeing on the pros and cons of the new website *prototype*. Big deal. Not the end of the world. Development continues as usual.
2. Control of marketing/communication. This is more interesting. Koki has just started and is trying to enforce his mandate, as far as I can tell. I think he will have to accept to share control over “marcom” with the core of developers that have run the project these last 5 years, even though they are not experts in marketing.
Yeah, stuff like this tends to get blown out of proportion on OSAlert with their “flashy headlines”, Jonas. Don’t sweat it. I don’t think anyone really following Haiku even really gave this a second thought.
Correct, but it has given those not closely following (which would be the intended audicence of Haiku once it is released) a false presumption that the core group of developers and those closely following the development is rocky. Which it clearly isn’t.
The issue is being totally blown out of scope. It will not hurt the project, it will not phase the people already following Haiku.
It will however impact the rest of the world reading it. Either positively or as I fear negatively towards Haiku. If the reporter of the “story” is trying to get Haiku visibility, they’ve succeeded. But it’s sorta like Mel Gibson looking for visiblity on a binge. It’s not going to harm the hard-core supporters, but the rest of the world will take notice in a bad way.
2. Control of marketing/communication. This is more interesting. Koki has just started and is trying to enforce his mandate, as far as I can tell. I think he will have to accept to share control over “marcom” with the core of developers that have run the project these last 5 years, even though they are not experts in marketing.
its very interesting. my experience has been that success w/ a new manager is made by the manager understanding that they need to win the respect of their subordinates. coming in with a my-way-or-the-highway and “i know better than you” attitude does nothing but make the team resentful and be even more disinclined to listen to what the manager has to say.
koki may be an expert in marketing in some specific capacity, but my guess is he’s not an expert in marketing operating systems, or even software judging from what i can find of him online (tribotek-inc.com, his current or previous employer makes weird power connectors). my inclination is he should be a better listener than commander at this point in time. earn the respect of his team and the other teams doing haiku work and slowly work into his new role. i don’t think the hard charging style is going to work on an OSS project, and i predict he will either change that style, or be forced to leave.
edit: i also wanted to note, that while someone can make good recommendations, or have good ideas, delivery is just as important as the idea itself. the freelist’s link in the osnews story is an example of bad delivery, and makes it seem like he’s already lost the respect of his team.
Edited 2006-08-28 06:02
Koki brought up some good points about the website. If Haiku wants to get promoted like it should then the developers should be more accepting of Koki’s ideas. I’m one of those people following the project from the outside. Koki’s ideas make a lot more sense to me than what’s posted on the website right now. If Haiku didn’t want to listen to a marketing master than why did they hire him? He’s just doing his job.
“If Haiku didn’t want to listen to a marketing master than why did they hire him?”
He is not hired by the Haiku project and who says he’s a “marketing master”?
If you are going to be an OS that is sold (which Haiku can be if someone wants to) and you want to attract users and developers, your website has to look good and is easy to use.
Say I am a potential user and I see Haiku on the store shelf. I decide to visit their web site to see what features it has. If the we site is cluttered or hard to navigate, it’s a turn. There is nothing I hate more thaan going a company’s website and having to dig just to find out information.
It is switching to Drupal. For some reason the beta site is called plonetest, but it is Drupal.
I think people are missing the point of a website, and the redesign.
The website is the PR front to the project, its not only there to give information to end users who might be enthusiastic about Haikus-OS (and might wish to donate some money) but it is also a marketing too to encourage developers, who might not otherwise contribute to opensource projects, to take an interest, and possibly contribute at a later date.
Its not only just about informing the end user of the status of of the project but to also encourage and demonstreate to new contributors the open and welcoming nature of the said project.
Being one of followers of this conversation (and a supporter of many points made by all parties involved) – I can honestly say this isn’t really very newsworthy.
I wouldn’t necessarily say it’s “Growing Pains” – but mostly just everyone getting their ideas on the table, so that it can be discussed and everyone is on the same page.
For those wondering why the website is being redesigned, I don’t believe it’s necessarily for looks, but also for content. The old site doesn’t have a lot of fresh content, and worse, doesn’t involve enough of the potential contributors directly. The new site promises to be much more dynamic with potential for more active content.
Most of the people involved in the conversation have known each other for years, and while the mailing list posts may seem harsh at times, I believe they have great respect for each other nonetheless.
The recent upswing in Haiku project involvement is positive. It feels like a sleeping giant is starting to awaken, and things are going to start moving in new directions now. The OS itself is making progress in leaps and bounds every day. The dedicated Haiku developers seem to be as motivated as ever, and I don’t see anything stopping the progress of Haiku. As pointed out by others here, the website is a minor thing compared to the OS itself.
I believe in time that Haiku will sell itself – and the marketing team will help deliver the message to the masses!
Having Developers deside design issues of websites and such is not a good idea, have never been a good idea and is a main difference between Open source and commercial stuff.
IF you wanna be stimulating for the outside world, Koki is right. Make it look good, make it look interesting, make it look fabulous. Right now it really isn’t.
Having a dev doing the design and copy is like having a goalkeeper driving commercial airliners. It simply isn’t made for that.
Now it might seem as I talk down on devs… definitely not, but they should focus on production, doing what they do best. Without them, there is simply nothing that can look fancy since there is no product. So respect each others turf will ya!
“have never been a good idea and is a main difference between Open source and commercial stuff.”
This explains why most commercial vendor sites looks great but are a functional nightmare. Tried navigating and finding usefull information on, say, Dell or HP?
I don’t understand the big dust up over Koki’s suggestion. The marketing group is responsible for controlling all of the public messages about the product and company. They are responsible for selling the vision in a way that it attracts more users/customers. The division line in tasking as outlined in the brief summary is the way it usually is in commercial software development companies. The development team should have input into the marketing if they have some special insight into the market place, but that is the exception and not the rule. It takes some discipline, but you don’t want developers driving marketing decisions anymore than you want marketing driving developer decisions.
I think it’s a mistake to think of people as either marketeers OR developers. People have different strengths. Some are strong in multiple areas. It’s very wrong to think that people who are strong in logic can not, by some cosmic law, also be strong in arts or in communication. Every person has a unique skill set.
Granted, you need to let the ones who do have the appropriate skills have control, but there has to be a little of the bazaar and a little of the cathedral in every aspect of a project, regardless of the area being web design, icon sets, or kernel internals. There has to be leadership, vision, coherence and following-through, as long as the process stays somewhat open to new people and new ideas.
(IMO, of course.)
Edited 2006-08-27 14:12
I agree with Jonas that it is a mistake to make the assumption that a software developer cannot be strong in arts or communication. But from the exchange in the Haiku ML, it does not look like the Haiku developers fall into that category.
Haiku really has their hands full. Now the guy from haikubounties.org is pissed because he raised money for the project and Haiku never acknowledged him or thanked the people that made the donations.
http://www.freelists.org/archives/openbeos/08-2006/msg00576.html
Koki tried to put off the fire…
http://www.freelists.org/archives/openbeos/08-2006/msg00579.html
…but then Axel poured some more fuel onto it.
http://www.freelists.org/archives/openbeos/08-2006/msg00591.html
Looks like there is some internal disagreement. Hope they sort things out, and this does not affect development.
As already noticed, our website redesign is not about the look, it’s about the content and maintainability. Our old website is outdated in many ways, and it’s hard to change that, as only very little people have access to it, and it’s very static.
While Koki is leading our marcom team, he needs to know what the vision behind Haiku is, what everyone involved expects from the new site, what it was trying to solve, etc. before he can work out his plans for the new site.
It’s a heated debate, but that’s just normal.
However, the links sogabe provided in reply [2] are a completely different topic. And I didn’t really intend to pour more fuel into that discussion, I probably just expressed myself poorly
Jonas, I’m not saying that an individual that is filling a developer role could not also fill a marketing role or vice versa. I’m saying they shouldn’t fill both rolls at the same time. Their focus is totally different so you are watering down that person’s capabilities by having them doing both. In small organizations of course there is no choice, but if you have someone that is dedicated to doing marcomm, they should be given free reign to do the marcomm. Their should be a leadership structure over top of the two groups as well, so that there can be an overall vision and mission statement that they are both following. But the contrasting focuses of the two groups often means that it is most effective to minimize the amount of medelling from one group to the other.
I linked to that beta site and it is a lot less visually appealing to me than the originial one. They may want to get someone with a graphics arts background to help with the design of the thing while their marcomm specialist can work out how to lay everything out.
Was that really a news? Or some bad joke? Since when OSAlert go read project’s internal mailing list to show what people are talking about? And it is the stuppidest thing ever to hammer with Haiku news wich have no points. I’m really disappointed by OSAlert here…
I looked at the new webpage and I see absolutely no reference to him (Koki) saying:
…that the new Haiku website now in development “looks awful, is disorganized, and it has no focus whatsoever”
Unless this is some personal reply he made to someone (and, if so, I think it shows poor directional/encouragement skills), I think this was simply “inferred” (by someone) to hurt Haiku’s momentum.
While, I suppose, any press is good press, those who are saying that this is no big deal are correct.
While we were “shopping around” for a new CMS, we tested plone. It didn’t work out and instead of wiping out the subdomain, I repurposed it for drupal. No big deal, really. Drupal seems to be fitting our needs.
We have moved most of our content from the old website to the new and we are in the process of cleaning up the design and holding a theme contest. Waldemar, the guy who has done the majority of the work on the new site, proposed shifting plonetest to the new domain. Koki, the new marcom guy, expressed his opinion that it isn’t ready yet. The quote, which, IMHO, is a little out of context, makes it sound vicious, something that was never intended.
Initially I was enthiousastic about Drupal, but the limitations hit me quickly when I tried it. A friend who does webdesign recommended me Expression Engine instead.
http://www.pmachine.com/ee/
And yeah, the test-site does look a little off. But I think that has to do with the lack of control from Drupal, imho.
It’s called “a discussion”. You know, when people have different opinions, voice them and after some time usually come an agreement. I know, it must be a wild and crazy idea for many of you people here on osnews, but trust me, this is how real life works and it’s not the end of the world as we know it.
Must be slow news day when this stuff is newsworthy.
I think the mailinglist is getting back to being constructive and friendly again.