A few months ago we ran a poll about the most important non-free Linux apps. We had over 8,000 votes in that poll and we consider the results pretty interesting. Interesting enough to push Linux’s market share if a distro capitalized on them?Right now, the users of the 3-5 most popular Linux distros have to either search the internet for guides like this one in order to get an idea how to install non-free software, or they have to figure out how to use the distro’s package management and how to enable certain repositories. In the case of Ubuntu also exists an easy-to-use utility that will download most of these apps for you and install them. But even in this case, the user must know of its existence and must know how to install it in the first place.
These are major hurdles for new users, even if they sound trivial to most tech-oriented OSAlert readers. These hurdles contribute in a big way to some users who try Linux distros to go back to Windows running scared. This is an issue that at least the big-5 distros (Ubuntu, Fedora, SuSE, Debian, Mandrake) must provide an easy solution to. It is the time to do so!
And that easy solution must work in a similar way to this:
1. Via a GUI app found on the /Administration menu that lists the 10 most wanted proprietary applications and asks the user to check the boxes of the apps he wants to install. Show a license agreement that waives the distro off any legal problems and then download and install the requested software.
2. When a user tries to load an mp3 or a .wmv, have patched your multimedia apps (e.g. Sound Juicer, Rhythmbox, Banshee, XMMS, Totem) to inform the user why they can’t play these files and ask if he/she wants to download the codecs. If the user says “yes”, show the license agreement that waives the distro from any legal problems and download/install the requested software. If installing the MP3 codec, also install the required Gnome mp3 profile so users can actually rip in MP3 with Sound Juicer.
According to our poll and some good guessing, here is the list of software that distros must work towards easily installing them and make the lives of their NEW users easier. Because when the user goes over this hurdle — a major hurdle for most –, I believe that most users will actually STAY in the platform rather than running away after the 10-minute geek tour of “that thing called linux”. Give them one more reason to stay!
1. System software
– ATi drivers
– nVidia drivers
– WiFi drivers and firmwares
– Other popular drivers
– MS Fonts
2. Multimedia support
– Several libs
– MPlayer codecs
– XineLib
– Real Player
3. Macromedia Flash
4. Sun Java
5. VMWare Player
6. Adobe Acrobat Reader
7. Opera
8. Picasa
9. Skype (and maybe the Gizmo client too)
10. Google Earth
I hope that at least Ubuntu is reading this. As I explained, having these packages scattered on their complicated package manager GUI app under a disabled repository, or the EasyUbuntu script that doesn’t come by default, is not good enough. This functionality must be “right in the face” of the user after installing the OS! Make the (newbie) user happy without putting the distro in a legal danger.
Seriously, this website should just stop breathing…It used to be good, but now its pointless whingeing from the complete lack of understanding of what’s going on.
Firstly, the people that demand all this from Linux distros are former Windows users. They aren’t familiar with the legal and other ramifications that arise from blindly adopting formats and drivers without thinking. In fact, they don’t give a flying f–k, because that’s what they’ve been molded to think.
And that’s wrong. Without the existance of such thinking and framework, Linux and other open-source projects wouldn’t exist as they are today. Sadly, many people don’t realise that. All they care about is the possibility of getting away from Windows. (Which often results in failure, because they’re still trying to use their Windows “experience” in Linux).
Second, the Nvidia and ATI driver issue is getting addressed.
Two projects are working on open versions (3D Acceleration) of drivers. So in the future, newbies wouldn’t even need to mess with video card drivers for the two most popular video card brands.
For Nvidia cards, the “nouveau project” is handling the open driver.
http://nouveau.freedesktop.org/wiki/
If you can help in any way, please do. It benefits to us all.
The R300_DRI handles the ATI side
http://dri.freedesktop.org/wiki/ATIRadeon#head-2f5098616350345fc8b9…
The progress can be found here.
http://megahurts.dk/rune/r300_status.html
Never the less, writing drivers from scratch (with no support from ATI or Nvidia, thank you very much a$$holes), is damn hard work. This will take time, but the goal will be achieved.
As the recent Nvidia driver security issue has emphasized, closed drivers aren’t always a good idea, despite that’s our only current option. (It demonstrates Theo de Raadt’s views.)
And someone mention something about DirectX…Have they not heard of SDL?
All I’m saying is that we should be patient. Whingeing how you want all this doesn’t help. In fact, it doesn’t do much.
Talking to the developers directly responsible for addressing these deficiencies and helping out in your spare time, does. You help attack the problem directly.
Open-source is about actively addressing issues. Sure, they will take time, but that doesn’t mean it won’t get done. But what can you expect from volunteers?
“Firstly, the people that demand all this from Linux distros are former Windows users. They aren’t familiar with the legal and other ramifications that arise from blindly adopting formats and drivers without thinking. In fact, they don’t give a flying f–k, because that’s what they’ve been molded to think.”
And why should they? These products have been offered to them by the manufacturers, who have been delighted to corner the market and become the de facto standard.
Either the Linux community(ies) want to compete with Windows and Mac for these users or they want to be political about their use of computers. If you go into a shop and buy a DVD, should you expect to see warnings that you are selling-out? Or should you be entitled to think, that’s nice I can play this on my TV with a DVD player or I can use that DVD-RW in my home computer to play it on my computer? When you buy an MP3 player and install music, is it unreasonable to want to transfer that music to your PC?
Most PC users don’t even understand what the Free in FOSS means, isn’t it time to stop looking down on them for that, and time to start find ways to help them find choices? Or shall we all feel superior that we use Linux and understand what FOSS means, and leave the others to Microsoft and Apple? Hmmm doesn’t sound like much of a plan to me!
//Either the Linux community(ies) want to compete with Windows and Mac for these users or they want to be political about their use of computers. If you go into a shop and buy a DVD, should you expect to see warnings that you are selling-out? Or should you be entitled to think, that’s nice I can play this on my TV with a DVD player or I can use that DVD-RW in my home computer to play it on my computer? When you buy an MP3 player and install music, is it unreasonable to want to transfer that music to your PC? //
These are reasonable questions, but they both very much ignore the fact that for BOTH use case scenarios here (playing the store-bought DVD or transfering the MP3 music to & from the PC) … both are much easier to achieve on Linux.
Yes! Strange but true! If an end user had to install Windows, then later do either of those things, it is far, far more difficult to do than for that same user to install Linux on that same PC and then do either of those things.
Compare apples with apples, and Linux is the easier. By far.
//and time to start find ways to help them find choices?//
What could be easier to use the Linux start menu, find the system menu, then find the “Add/remove software” menu entry. Start that, and search for “dvd” or “mp3”. A few more clicks, and it is all done.
On Windows, it is far harder to install support for playing a DVD or an mp3. Many times harder. And more expensive.
Either the Linux community(ies) want to compete with Windows and Mac for these users or they want to be political about their use of computers.
You still don’t get it do you? There is no grand unified fantastic Linux/FOSS community agenda to outcompete other OSes. There are no FOSS leaders, and no FOSS domination plan. All we have is a shared codebase and the notion that we want to continue sharing it as it evolves. Some developers want to create a nice desktop solution, others a firewall and still others a scientific cluster. Kudos to them all! Some projects like Debian maintain such complex collections of code that you can have either and still benefit from updates and improvements common to the whole project.
When it comes to FOSS, it is the developers’ way or the highway. There is no mutual contract. If you don’t like what you get, improve it, fork it or go somewhere else.
What I do not get on the other hand is why so many want to switch from Windows to Linux and not experience the most important differences.
What I do not get on the other hand is why so many want to switch from Windows to Linux and not experience the most important differences.
Personnally i switched long ago because i wanted to determine my own shedule of hardware upgrade somewhat.Every new windows release didn’t brought the things i thought/think was important,yet i was indirect forced to adapt to increased hardware specs for no reason.
Other advantages are working equivalent apps in a repository.Most trivial apps and drivers are ready for usage after a fresh install.With linux,*bsd,*nix i can express myself without having to hunt down each and every app and dependency and harvesting malware and annoying popups on the go.Most things are in repository and are digitally signed (ubuntu has 18000+ apps in repository).
On windows there isn’t such thing as a distro repository.A default install brings nothing usefull with it.Vista is no exeption in this regard.
Off the record,it’s a little awkward now Vista is apparently soon to be released there isn’t much software written for vista.firewalls,virusscanners,burning software,etc are in beta stage or don’t exist.
> Firstly, the people that demand all this from Linux
> distros are former Windows users. They aren’t familiar
> with the legal and other ramifications that arise from
> blindly adopting formats and drivers without thinking.
> In fact, they don’t give a flying f–k, because that’s
> what they’ve been molded to think.
This is a highly arrogant and uninformed statement. Firstly, saying that “users have been molded to think” this way shows that you outright ignore the reasons for the decisions. Secondly, most people choose against Linux on a purely economical basis: The compare the money they spend and the time they invest against the resulting features, ease of use, coolness factor, and similar of their computer.
At the bottom line, Linux fails: Not in a single area or even in the same area for different users, but in the sum of all contributions to their decision. For other users, Linux wins at the bottom line, and they change happily and never return to Windows.
I just do not understand this Cowtowing to the various peripheral vendors. In order for the OpenSource OS to be strong, you must compel these OEMs to provide Specs for their Hardware so that the Kernel Devs can develop proper driver mods to the kernel. Take a Lesson from Theo De Raadt of OpenBSD. OpenBSD is miles ahead of any Linux Distro in the WiFi arena, and it’s completely OpenSource.
Take a lesson from NVidia in their Binary Driver’s vulnerabilities and Even Atheros in their Binary drivers. Will You compromise your kernel’s security with something that you cannot control?
Funny now,people are just warmed up from “Which Vista” article. Let’s see now how this will turn. I see a lot of people wanting ATI-nVidia drivers. Could that be because people use their Windows machines mostly for games?And once these working good on Linux there won’t be any impediment to write/port GOOD games to Linux?Just a thought…
*popcorns,soda ready*
Edited 2006-10-25 08:55
“there won’t be any impediment to write/port GOOD games to Linux?”
There’s no DirectX on Linux and since most commercial Windows games use DirectX that’s something of a big hurdle.
DirectX is simply an API. Linux does not provide the API, but WINE does. Most DirectX games (6-9 anyway) can be run on Linux today without a whole lot of hassle.
If you write for DirectX, however, chances are: you aren’t looking to make the game portable in any sense of the word, and you aren’t familiar with or competent with the alternatives (for which there is native Linux support).
Today, though, many game developers write for specific engines. The game itself is developed on an intermediate platform that uses DirectX (or whatever) as the back-end. The engine developer could write a separate back-end that is not DirectX based and can run natively in other environments. Epic Games, creators of Unreal Tournament, do this, for example.
Actually, Wine do have an implementation of DirectX, acting as a wrapper around OpenGL. It’s not complete, but it works in part. Good enough that many popular FPS can run on Linux with Wine.
And besides that many games are written to _not_ only use DirectX but also other abstraction layers, incl. cross platform abstraction layers.
So it’s not really a big hurdle after all.
I have installed Ubuntu myself a few times, and it really is SO annoying to have to go through lots of extra steps to even get MP3 playback..They really should make it a lot easier to install those since most people install them anyway. Well, since I use Gentoo myself, atleast I don’t have to worry about such. “emerge rhythmbox” installs MP3 support anyway.
I have installed Ubuntu myself a few times, and it really is SO annoying to have to go through lots of extra steps to even get MP3 playback..
Here’s an idea: put a metapackage in multiverse that pulls in everything needed to get mp3/wmv/whatever playback. The needed packages are already provided (except for w32codecs and libdvdcss)
Let’s call them ubuntu-restricted-multimedia and kubuntu-restricted-multimedia.
Simple, right? So simple I am surprised that MOTU’s haven’t already done it.
* Here’s an idea: put a metapackage in multiverse that pulls in everything needed to get mp3/wmv/whatever playback. The needed packages are already provided (except for w32codecs and libdvdcss)
Let’s call them ubuntu-restricted-multimedia and kubuntu-restricted-multimedia. *
libxine-extracodecs contains everything you need for anything playback (except for libdvdcss and w32codecs), a search for ‘codecs’ in adept or synaptic will reveal this.
libxine-extracodecs contains everything you need for anything playback (except for libdvdcss and w32codecs), a search for ‘codecs’ in adept or synaptic will reveal this.
I was thinking of https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RestrictedFormats
According to this guide, there’s more work to be do done that simply installing libxine-extracodecs.
Besides, how I am I supposed to “guess” the right package name? There’s room for improvement here, I think.
//Besides, how I am I supposed to “guess” the right package name? There’s room for improvement here, I think.//
(1) Put a DVD in the DVD drive. The default player will start up and it wiil tell you the name of any uninstalled package(s) you wiil need to install to play it.
or …
(2) Start your package manager. Hit the search button. Type in “dvd”. Read the descriptions of what is then listed.
It really isn’t that hard.
BTW … dvd decoders and mp3 codecs aren’t part of Windows standard install, either.
It really isn’t that hard.
Believe me, I will put a ridiculous amount of time and effort to make things work, if needed. I can afford it and I enjoy it. But most people don’t and I think that the barrier should be lowered.
//Believe me, I will put a ridiculous amount of time and effort to make things work, if needed. I can afford it and I enjoy it. But most people don’t and I think that the barrier should be lowered.//
How so?
How hard is it to put a DVD in the DVD drive, and then, when it tells you it needs an extra package to be installed, just go & install that package, using the package manager just as you would for any other package?
Alternatively, I typed in >”play dvd” ubuntu< into google search, and within 3 clicks I found this help:
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RestrictedFormats
… It really isn’t too hard at all. From that page, for ubuntu, to play a DVD amounts to copy & paste the following line into a terminal:
sudo /usr/share/doc/libdvdread3/examples/install-css.sh
BTW … you are still ignoring the fact that this is far, far easier to get a DVD player working than it is in Windows. In Windows, you have to find a commercial dvd player application and then find somewhere to buy it from, buy it & install it.
Far costlier and many times more troublesome.
Please address any issues you have fairly and with parity against the alternatives.
Edited 2006-10-25 10:50
BTW … you are still ignoring the fact that this is far, far easier to get a DVD player working than it is in Windows. In Windows, you have to find a commercial dvd player application and then find somewhere to buy it from, buy it & install it.
Far costlier and many times more troublesome.
Not to mention those unpleasant visits to your favourite “warez&crackz” site.
Please address any issues you have fairly and with parity against the alternatives.
Fair enough.
//In Windows, you have to find a commercial dvd player application and then find somewhere to buy it from, buy it & install it. //
Well, I exaggerate just a little there.
You could install this instead:
http://www.videolan.org/vlc/download-windows.html
which won’t cost you.
Edited 2006-10-25 11:07
>this is far, far easier to get a DVD player working than it is in Windows.
Far more illegal too.
//Far more illegal too.//
Pfft. I keep hearing this wild claim, yet no-one can say what is illegal about it.
It is illeagl to play DVDs now?
From https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RestrictedFormats :
The movie players provided in Ubuntu can play back unencrypted DVDs. However, many commercial DVDs are encrypted with a weak algorithm called CSS (the [WikiPedia]Content Scrambling System). You can enable playback of encrypted DVDs with MPlayer, xine and Totem-xine by installing libdvdcss2.
———————-
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libdvdcss :
In many countries it is forbidden to sell or document programs that provide ways around copy protection systems. CSS is not a copy protection system, but thwarts attempts to play the DVD without proper software. Despite this fact, many Linux distributions do not contain libdvdcss (for example Debian, SUSE Linux, and Ubuntu) for reasons concerning patents.
———————–
So basically, if you live in the USA, and probably in other countries too, it is illegal to use libdvdcss. Chances are nobody would ever prosecute for it, but it’s still illegal. If an IT Admin of a reputable company were to roll out software with legal implications like those of libdvdcss, he’d probably lose his job.
Edited 2006-10-25 13:39
//So basically, if you live in the USA, and probably in other countries too, it is illegal to use libdvdcss. Chances are nobody would ever prosecute for it, but it’s still illegal. //
No. This is wrong.
Even in the US, the purpotedly illegal bit (according to the American DMCA) is to “provide ways around copy protection systems”
“CSS is not a copy protection system”
Therefore, even in the good old freedom-suppressing USA, it is NOT illegal to use libdvdcss.
BTW, the DVD-CCA & MPA went after Jon Lech Johansen (aka DVD Jon), who wrote DeCSS (which is not libdvdcss, BTW) and failed to get a conviction.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeCSS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Lech_Johansen
Nobody has even tried to legally curtail libdvdcss:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libdvdcss
“libdvdcss is not to be confused with DeCSS. While DeCSS uses a cracked DVD player key to perform authentication, libdvdcss uses a generated list of possible player keys. Unlike DeCSS, libdvdcss has never been fought over in a courtroom.”
libdvdcss works in an entirely different way to DeCSS. So if one of them somehow violates a patent, then the other one doesn’t. Neither has been found to violate the DMCA, despite a concerted effort to do so in the case of DeCSS. Neither violates copyright. Only Xing could be in any sort of “IP” trouble for letting out a trade secret (one of the keys).
It pays to get some facts first, before you sprout.
Edited 2006-10-25 14:03
BTW … you are still ignoring the fact that this is far, far easier to get a DVD player working than it is in Windows. In Windows, you have to find a commercial dvd player application and then find somewhere to buy it from, buy it & install it.
Far costlier and many times more troublesome.
Funny, my wife simply put a DVD in her Windows XP laptop, and played it. No software to find, buy, or install.
Me, the first time I tried to play a DVD on my Linux machine, I had to search to figure out what I needed to install, then I had to find out whether my distribution made it available, then I had to download install it, then I think I had to reboot before I could play a DVD. Much easier.
Funny, my wife simply put a DVD in her Windows XP laptop, and played it. No software to find, buy, or install.
Me, the first time I tried to play a DVD on my Linux machine, I had to search to figure out what I needed to install, then I had to find out whether my distribution made it available, then I had to download install it, then I think I had to reboot before I could play a DVD. Much easier.
That's because she is using a laptop. These machines always comes preinstalled with all sort of applications installed by the hardware vendor. At least, I haven't seen one that does comes with a off-the-shelf barebones version of Windows. Windows XP itself doesn't comes with a DVD decoder out of the box either if you get the retail version and install on your box.
Regardless, I think that this is a non issue. I had to install WinDVD to be able to watch DVDs on Windows and had to install libdvdread/libdvdcss with Xine to be able to watch DVDs on Linux. In both cases, it was almost effortless.
There are lots of people on this thread making it appear a lot harder than it really is. My wife doesn't know how to make DVDs work on neither platform no matter how easy these people think that Windows is, so she would be lost and clueless in both cases. If a person can't follow simple instructions handed to them, he/she will be lost no matter what OS he/she is dealing with.
The first thing that me and 80% of home users do when I install Ubuntu is enable universe/multiverse repositories. So let’s not ignore reality and put a first time wizard or something that let’s you choose if you want to include “unsupported” software in your selections, including “real” multimedia support.
Of course give all warnings that playing mp3 is a HIGHLY ILLEGAL activity that will surely cause you to BURN IN HELL.
Since playing mp3 files are perfectly legal there is no need for warnings.
For that matter one can grab a dvd. Still perfectly legal.
Of course this may not apply to USA but too bad for them.
Automatix?
It’s a pretty useless result. Nothing to care about. 8000 votes? I don’t think 8000 is any result to represent millions of people …
So what? It is an INDICATION. And besides, we all KNOW (before and after the poll took place) that these apps/drivers is what most NEW users WANT from Linux. My editorial is not based on the results of the poll, it is using it as indicative data. The idea I present on the editorial existed in my mind for YEARS now, because I recognized the need for it.
Indication? Do you know statistics? Maybe not … indicative data – okay … but where is the base for this indication? If you don’t present this information, it’s obsolete hype.
>The idea I present on the editorial existed in my mind for YEARS now, because I recognized the need for it. Most of these votes are nothing more than hype, to push people toward a certain direction, to make an indication.
Open Source should be realistic, it should not do the same mistake like commercial software. Think of vaporware.
And remember Open Source isn’t just about “I want”, “give me something”, Open Source is about “to give something”, “to participate”. The latter is almost forgotten and if you can’t give something the “Opensource way”, donate some money.
With “you” I do think in a common way.
The poll did not ask whether for example Ubuntu should include non-free in the install, it merely asked which non-free software is important to the users.
I need flash. So yesterday, after installing FC6, one of the first things i did was install flash. And mplayer, ntfs and stuff from the livna repo.
But i do not think Fedora should include these. Without a strong focus on free software, there wouldn’t have been a Fedora or an Ubuntu now.
If users really wanted non-free, why is it that Ubuntu is the big name in Linux, and not for example Linspire? And why isn’t there a (very) popular distro that includes non-free software, based on Ubuntu (or Fedora)?
Assuming the votes represented a completely random sample of the 1 million people, then 8 thousand votes is overkill to get an accurate picture. You’ll learn that in your first statistics class.
That said, how certain are they that the received a random sample?
if I recall, there’r a distro named SabayonLinux that has many apps on a dvd. http://www.sabayonlinux.org
Browser: Opera/8.01 (J2ME/MIDP; Opera Mini/2.0.4509/1376; en; U; ssr)
Yeah, but 80-90% of the Linux users only use the top-5 distros. These are the distros that must make the difference.
Instead of hype, we should sensitize users for alternative ways in Open Source. The should know about their choice. In all those articles everyone want’s the ultimative distro? What’s this? A copycat of Windows or MacOS X, but nothing real different.
Yes, we do want ALL the features of OSX and Windows, plus that extra “real different” thing you mention. IF you only give users the “real different” without the “copycat” part, you fail. And you fail because people don’t want to lose functionality.
Oliver, normal people don’t give a rat’s ass about open source, community, and giving. In case you haven’t noticed yet, people are egocentric, and only care about themselves and their loved ones. This may sound harsh, but it’s the truth.
In other words, you won’t be able to make people use open source software just because it’s open source. The argument doesn’t work, because people simply don’t care. Don’t the existence and popularity of the Ubuntuguide, EasyUbuntu, and Automatix prove this to you?
Open source advocates need to learn to accept that they cannot force everyone into thinking like them. Choice is about more than just the open source way. Non-free is a choice too, you know, and by religiously forcing people to settle for less-than-optimal solutions (.ogg maybe as good as or better than .mp3, but since few hardware players support and most of people’s music in in .mp3 anyway, it is not the best solution for normal folk), you are actually removing their choice.
What I care about, is that people have the best computing solution that works best for them. I am a Linux user, and I’d love to see more people use it. However, I simply know that because of things like what Eugenia is talking about in this editorial, it is not the optimal solution for most of my friends, hence I refuse to advocate it to them.
Think about that. What is more important, open source, or wanting the best and easiest computing experience for your friends?
Open source advocates need to learn to accept that they cannot force everyone into thinking like them. Choice is about more than just the open source way. Non-free is a choice too, you know, and by religiously forcing people to settle for less-than-optimal solutions
All valid, but why would it then be ok to force open source advocates to include non-free in their distributions, when there are already other distributions offering the free plus non-free way?
Choice can be applied at multiple levels. One can choose between hardware manufacturers, type of computer (desktop, laptop, …), operating system, operating system vendor (when applicable as with Linux), different layers of the software stack and so on.
Some choices might limit the option for other choices and might as a consequence not lead to an overall satisfiable combination for a given requirement.
For example if the primary choice is to buy a Dell, your operating system options get OS X removed.
If the primary choice is to play MP3, free-only distributions are removed from the operating system vendor choice, the operating system Linux stays available through vendors going with a mixed approach.
Now it would be nice for the first example to have OS X available on all OEM platforms and MP3 enabled in all software stacks, but that will always be up to the respective vendor.
As long as there are other options at the respective level, the primary choice can still be satisfied.
If there are no more options left, there might be a need for a compromise somewhere
“Think about that. What is more important, open source, or wanting the best and easiest computing experience for your friends?”
That is very true, and it is my way of thinking as well.
However there are situations when Linux is better than Windows. For instance there must be at least one distro that is better than Windows 98.
And if it is true that most people don’t care about OSS values, it is also true that they care about free as in free beer.
it is also true that they care about free as in free beer.
Right, but Windows is also “free” when you buy a new computer, or when you get it via bittorrent. So this is not a strong argument either, I think.
“Right, but Windows is also “free” when you buy a new computer, or when you get it via bittorrent. So this is not a strong argument either, I think.”
Well, let’s put it this way: if you build your own box (as I do) or if you want to upgrade an old box from 98/ME *and* stay legal, there is no way that Windows is free.
On the other hand, if you buy a PC with Windows preinstalled, it isn’t free either: Dell, HP, Sony…will add the price of Windows, even if they pay peanuts for an OEM license.
Eeh.. you don’t get Windows with your pc unless you’re ready to either use an illegal key, or you buy a license.
There was no windows with my machine.
Besides, while the number of free and OSS applications for Windows is increasing, for some you must still pay. Examples: Nero, a DVD playing app…
Not so in Linux: K3B, Kaffeine or Mplayer for DVD playing…
“What is more important, open source, or wanting the best and easiest computing experience for your friends?”
Open source. If open source is not important to someone else, that person is free to continue using Windows, OSX, or whatever else he or she wants.
I want open standards, and open source is an important part of making that happen. I want *real* choice. That choice being that I can use whatever browser, word processor, music player, etc., that I want to use, and everyone else can happily use whatever they want to use.
If that makes me a zealot, fine. I can live with that title.
The most important matter here is whether Linux is a valid carrier for pursuing open standards and breaking lock in opportunities.
The real question is whether community is ready to sacrifice some purity for sake of boosting its market share and thus enchancing its strength as the carrier or protecting it as the ultimate expression of its ideals.
In other words whether linux needs more users or more followers.
I presonally think that counting on linux as the major way of bringing open standards to the masses is an utopian goal. It would be much more effective to embrace Windows market share by providing extensions to it that would seamlessly enable open standards/formats.
I can choose whatever web browser/word processor/music player that I want to in Windows and OS X as well.
By the way, this is probably the first time I’ve agreed 110% with one of your opinions, Thom. Well said.
“These are the distros that must make the difference.
”
Must? Really? Doesn’t that depend on what their goals and idea(l)s are?
Yeah, but 80-90% of the Linux users only use the top-5 distros. These are the distros that must make the difference
But if those distros that provide those things are not in the top-5, doesn’t this tell us that the addidional value is not helping them makretwise?
FWIW, what the article ignores is that in general, proprietary software vendors (and other ‘intellectual property’ right holders) put a lot of value into their brands, and want to control the distribution channel, i.e. who they are associated with.
They don’t want every random h4x0r linux distro to redistribute their w4r3z freely, possibly adding their customizations. There is no money in that.
FWIW, what the article ignores is that in general, proprietary software vendors (and other ‘intellectual property’ right holders) put a lot of value into their brands,
What yardstick are you using to measure that? Microsoft? Oh dear.
and want to control the distribution channel, i.e. who they are associated with.
If I buy something, I control that thing. End of story.
They don’t want every random h4x0r linux distro to redistribute their w4r3z freely, possibly adding their customizations. There is no money in that.
Funny, I could swear I paid for that copy of Mandrake Linux. Oh, and that other one. Oh, and that copy of Gentoo.
Selling proprietary software has certain business models.
For example, Adobe’s Flash player FAQ pretty clearly states
“Can I make the Flash and Shockwave players available directly from my website?
No, the Flash Player and Shockwave Player free distribution agreement does not allow you to distribute the players from your website. You must direct visitors to the players, readers, and viewers area of our downloads page . To easily link to our website, we provide Adobe web player buttons that you can display on your site.”
Is it that surprising that proprietary software vendors don’t want any random guy to redistribute their software gratis and at his leisure? That they want to control the brand, the distribution channel, and the revenue chain? And that they would defend their revenue streams if they had to?
I think the distro’s that provide these sorts of things are more technically oriented. Arch for example, there’s a package called “codecs.” I still can’t believe they do it, but it’s really convenient!
But no newb is going to survive Arch without a guru living in the same room. That’s ok though, Arch is very open about not being newb friendly.
Anyway, I think Eugenia is making a bigger deal of this than it is. Ubuntu can’t do what she asks because it goes against all that it stands for. Fedora can’t because it stands against RedHat’s policy.
And frankly, many of these non-free applications aren’t very good:
1.) Nvidia drivers: Linux doesn’t need new users complaining about the instability these cause. Although they aren’t too bad.
2.) ATI drivers: Total crap.
3.) Acroread: The only thing this is good for is filling in the few pdf’s that let you do that, Government forms. Otherwise, Evince is just awesome these days.
4.) Java: The implementation which made the world think Java was a slow language until Gnu proved that wrong. It’s an _ok_ implementation now. It’s still kludgy in some circumstances.
5.) Multimedia Codecs: Completely illegal to distribute. I wouldn’t touch them with a ten-foot pole if I were running a server.
6.) Intel compiler: If you can’t install it from Intel’s instructions you have no business using it. Seriously.
7.) Opera: Provides an RPM for a couple of those popular distributions. Installing it is very much like it is in Windows.
8.) Skype: Maybe this one would be good to get packaged.
9.) Macromedia Flash: More and more sites are switching to flash 8 these days, I’m beginning to find that flash 7 gets me little more than google video (you can download the good videos anyway) and web advertisements. Oy I despise flash.
10.) Pixel32: Um, that’s not only not free as in freedom, it costs money. Should distributions take credit cards numbers now? (I’m not being sarcastic, it’s not a horrible option).
>Ubuntu can’t do what she asks
Mark Shuttleworth has a different opinion.
The reason things like DVD and MP3 support cannot be included is that it is illegal to distribute them in the US without a license. Soo, if Sabayon is including those packages, eventually it will come back to bite them.
//The reason things like DVD and MP3 support cannot be included is that it is illegal to distribute them in the US without a license.//
There has never been a case of any imaginary “license holder” of a method of playing DVDs successfully suing any other independent method of doing that.
You legal conclusion above is extremely dubious.
Where exactly is this imaginary “right to license” the particular method of decoding CSS as used by either libdvdcss or that used by DeCSS? No company has ever asserted such a right.
I find quite funny that you suggest a GUI app to install NVidia driver, do you see the problem?
This happened to me with Kubuntu 6.06TS: the opensource driver didn’t work with my NVidia board, how do I open a webbrowser to download the proprietary NVidia driver?
I managed to do it by changing manually the X server configuration to use the vesa driver, it’s quite painful to have a 60Hz refresh configuration, but this allowed me getting the driver.
But for a beginner, changing manually the X server configuration is quite tough, so there is also a need have some kind of tool managing X: if X fails with the opensource driver then suggest using the vesa driver temporarily to troubleshoot the problem.
I don’t know if its possible to have something else than 60Hz for the vesa driver but it’s really painful to use though so the user must be warned to not keep the driver..
This happened to me with Kubuntu 6.06TS: the opensource driver didn’t work with my NVidia board, how do I open a webbrowser to download the proprietary NVidia driver?
Type: ‘lynx’
This happened to me in Mandriva 2007 after changing from stock kernel to mm-desktop kernel… and XFdrake detected that my NVIDIA module was no longer loaded and automatically generated a new xorg.conf on the fly. I was expecting to get bumped to a terminal, but instead was booted into the desktop. I think this may have been part of first time boot script after installing an additional kernel, but boy it was slick.
That’s a good thing, but in my opinion those type of tool shouldn’t be part of a distribution but part of KDE or Gnome: it’s their role to provide easy-to-use components for the user to manage the drivers.
Out of curiosity, which driver Mandriva used after rewriting the xorg.conf file, the vesa driver?
If this is the case, there should be somekind of visual indication of what’s happening because for me vesa was doing 60Hz refresh which is very unpleasant to use..
Has the same thing happened to you?
Ahh, this is really difficult. In principle I do not agree with you that it is up to the distro devs to implement such install-methods, but in practice I too enjoy having easy ways to install non-free software when I need it.
I do not think that you as a user can actually demand anything from a FOSS project, and certainly not most FOSS distros which rely to such an extent on voluntary collaboration and free and unlimited access to code. The distro devs are simply wrapping up software in a functional package, mostly public software which in the case of GPL or similar licences we all share and have equal access to and rights to use and modify. Integrating non-free software into the distro blurs the distinction between code that the community can support, fix and improve, and code that is simply out of reach and that the devs in no way can have any responsibility for at all. Assuming that they have any with FOSS; they have the same “responsibility” and access that you do as a user.
The way I see it, a distro is just a starting point for your own personal computing environment anyway, not a baby sitter to watch over you and help you whenever you can not reach for something yourself. It is up to YOU where you take it by extending YOUR very own collection of software once you have installed the distro, and that is a feature in itself not a limitation.
I think that projects like Automatix ( http://www.getautomatix.com/ ), DebCentral config ( http://debcentral.org/modules/news/article.php?storyid=235 ) and non-free repositories are great, but I can not see how anyone can righteously demand having them or similar features integrated into the distro. Making it easy to add non-free code is of course not the same as making such code part of the distro. That said, maybe installers could give users the options to activate some of these repositories from start, while at the same time stating why they are not activated by default. Maybe the devs of your distro thinks the same way, maybe not. Switch to something else then if it is important to you. I dunno. Somehow Windows and Apple users find out how to install realplayer or drivers without being actively encouraged or guided by their OS developers.
Edited 2006-10-25 09:51
>>Somehow Windows and Apple users find out how to >>install realplayer or drivers without being >>actively encouraged or guided by their OS >>developers.
Yes because when I double click on a file that has an extension that my WinXP machine can’t play my OS doesn’t actively guide me into downloading the software by saying something like “To open this file, Windows needs to know what program created it. Windows can go online to look it up automatically, or you can manually select from a list of programs on your computer.”
Eugenia,
We ship the nVidia and ATI binary blob drivers as part of the base Ubuntu install. There is no need to download anything. You just need to enable the driver in the rare case the installer does not detect your card correctly.
Also, recommending EasyUbuntu or any of the other automated installers is not something I would do. They are frought with peril, and in the event they do not work exactly as they should, can leave a user’s machine in a non-working state.
Yes, Ubuntu is listening. But in the case of, “Make it easy to get hardware acceleration!” the answer is, “We already did. How did you miss it?”
Yes, Ubuntu is listening. But in the case of, “Make it easy to get hardware acceleration!” the answer is, “We already did. How did you miss it?”
Do you install the “nvidia” driver by default on nvidia hardware? Because if I remember correctly up to dapper I got “nv” by default.
Edited 2006-10-25 10:01
sudo apt-get install nvidia-glx
sudo nvidia-glx-config enable
and of you go, no manual xorg.conf editing necesary.
//sudo apt-get install nvidia-glx
sudo nvidia-glx-config enable
and of you go, no manual xorg.conf editing necesary.//
It is even easier on some distributions:
http://www.pclinuxonline.com/wiki/SetupNVidia
No magic command-line incantations at all!
sudo apt-get install nvidia-glx
sudo nvidia-glx-config enable
and of you go, no manual xorg.conf editing necesary.
Maybe, but it’s using the command line, which is just not good enough. With that attitude, why have we got Synaptic or gnome-app-install? Apt-get is clearly good enough.
There should be a GUI app called “Display Settings” or something like that. It should list the available video drivers compatible with your hardware, and allow you to choose between them (most cards will only have one choice of course, but ATI and Nvidia owners would get two). It should offer to restart X for you, and roll back to the previous driver if things don’t work.
It should allow you to check that 3D acceleration is working, if available on your card. Nvidia and ATI could put hooks in there to their own settings programmes, like they do in Windows.
Oh, and it should also make configuring multiple displays easier than falling off a log. Do you want to clone or extend your desktop? If you’re extending it, what’s the orientation of the monitors with respect to one another? Going further, it should also pop up a dialogue when HAL reports that a new display has been plugged in, asking you what you want to do.
But I can dream…
Doing anything at all with X on Ubuntu other than changing the resolution requires you to delve into either xorg.conf or the command line. For God’s sake, even Windows 98 allowed you to configure dual displays easily. I’m amazed nothing has been done about it on Linux.
//There should be a GUI app called “Display Settings” or something like that. It should list the available video drivers compatible with your hardware, and allow you to choose between them (most cards will only have one choice of course, but ATI and Nvidia owners would get two). It should offer to restart X for you, and roll back to the previous driver if things don’t work.
It should allow you to check that 3D acceleration is working, if available on your card. Nvidia and ATI could put hooks in there to their own settings programmes, like they do in Windows.
Oh, and it should also make configuring multiple displays easier than falling off a log. Do you want to clone or extend your desktop? If you’re extending it, what’s the orientation of the monitors with respect to one another? Going further, it should also pop up a dialogue when HAL reports that a new display has been plugged in, asking you what you want to do.
But I can dream… //
You mean like this?
http://www.cyskat.de/dee/progxorg.htm
Yes. Probably should be included in Ubuntu by default.
Of course it is included by default in some easier distros …
http://www.pclinuxonline.com/wiki/PCCHardware
http://www.pclinuxonline.com/wiki/PCCMonitor
Hey, even kubuntu …
http://www.thecodingstudio.com/opensource/linux/screenshots/scaled/…
Edited 2006-10-25 13:12
The driver issue is of no fault to the Linux devs, I believe it is more on the hardware manufacturing companies. I think an admin menu for proprietary apps is a good idea for the short term. In the long term, I think the devs should focus on an InstallShield type app for installing drivers and software (oss or not). This may also ease the installation and configuration of the proprietary apps since companies like Adobe will have a unified installer that should just work no matter the distro. This is somewhat of a twoway street here. If Commercial Software Companies had an easy way to install software across all distros, this would be more of an incentive to for them to bring their software to Linux. Let’s face it, though APT, RPM, etc., has come a long way to ease installation of Linux, it still is not completely newbie friendly nor is it commercial/proprietary software friendly.
On a side note, I think a DirectX type API for Linux might entice Game publishers and Devs to support Linux, and with games come more users! Game On!
On a side note, I think a DirectX type API for Linux might entice Game publishers and Devs to support Linux, and with games come more users! Game On!
Would you pay for a Linux game?
Why do people think Linux user are so reluctant to pay for games or other software? I am a Linux user, I use Windows from time to time to play games, and yes, I do pay for them. Amazing, huh? I really must be a white fly …
rehdon
You know, it would seem to me that linux gamers would be likely to buy more games than the windows gamer, because we don’t have to worry about paying for anything else and therefore have the available cash.
I think that people are reluctant to pay for porly written or porly supported software. Unfortunately this is often the case for software that have been ported to Linux from other platforms.
E.g. look at Nero CD burning software. It may be very good on windows but compared to its free competitors on Linux it looks like a rather blunt instrument. On top of that it is written using very a old GUI toolkit, that makes it stand out as old and outdated. Of course people don’t pay for these kind of things.
One other thing, if you look at the websites of many software venders that tries to provide Linux ports, the Linux version is often described as some kind of experiment, with nom promises of future support, or future availability. Still the Linux version often carries the same price as versions for more common platforms. No wonder they are hard to sell.
On the other hand, it doesn’t seam to be any problem to sell well written software such as Oracle, DB2, VMWare, Maya, Mathematica, Math Lab, Websphere… All of these are quite expensive, but still sold. Not to mention that the Linux distros frequently used in business such as Red Hat are far from cheap. So clearly at least business are willing to spend money on Linux products.
If we are talking about the consumer market, the situation is different. My guess is that most consumers (unlike you) doesn’t have that much money to spend. This means that they will go for a platform where they easily can buy one or two games, and pirate the rest from their friends.
Edited 2006-10-25 14:46
Not to mention that the Linux distros frequently used in business such as Red Hat are far from cheap. So clearly at least business are willing to spend money on Linux products.
More is spend on licenses and support contracts?
Well, I currently pay for my Windows games, I pay for my Console games, so Why should Linux Games be any different? I would gladly shell out money for quality games on Linux.
I would gladly shell out money for quality games on Linux.
Fine. Now, would you gladly pay for any quality, closed source software on Linux?
Some people consider this an anathema.
P.S. And this may be exactly what is holding desktop Linux back.
Edited 2006-10-25 10:23
Is it really that far fetched that anyone who runs Linux or wants to run Linux (I fit in the later catagory) would pay for software, be it open or closed source. Granted, I would not want to pay for Hardware Drivers as I think it is the responsibility of the Hardware Manufacturers to supply the necessary drivers for their products, I am sure some people would if it means more reliability/functionality for their systems under Linux. Also, why is closed source software considered an anathema for Linux. Just because the OS is open source does not mean that all software must be open source. Besides intalled user base, I think the views that some community members have towards proprietary software keep comercial developers from embracing Linux and that is a shame. Linux has so much untapped potential. I only recommended a unified application installer (ie InstallShield) and a DirectX equivilent APIs for 1) ease of use and uniform software installation across all distros (RPM, APT, etc does not cut it as user friendly); and 2) to entice Publishers and Developers to write code for Linux be it open or closed source, free (as in beer) or purchasable.
I only recommended a unified application installer (ie InstallShield) and a DirectX equivilent APIs for 1) ease of use and uniform software installation across all distros (RPM, APT, etc does not cut it as user friendly); and 2) to entice Publishers and Developers to write code for Linux be it open or closed source, free (as in beer) or purchasable.
As for the API, there are plenty cross-plaftorm like SDL, Ogre to choose for game developers. These information are available for them and they can port their game with minimal effort much like Epic Gaming did. The real problem is mostly publishers’ decisions.
Fine. Now, would you gladly pay for any quality, closed source software on Linux?
Some people consider this an anathema.
It is not an anathema; it is an oxymoron.
At the very least I should be able to try software before I buy it, because I have learned that the gap between what the software does and what the vendor claims it does is often of cosmic proportions.
Also, “you can never trust code that you did not write yourself”. Open-source software that someone else has written comes a close second, closed-source software a poor third. Rarely, however, is it possible to return a software product that stinks or comes fully loaded with ten pounds of spyware. And it never seems to be a case of the software being BETTER than the marketing.
But, I would and do pay for quality open source software.
I do.
(Quake3 & 4, Doom3, RtCW, UT2K3/2K4, etc)
Bought a copy of Quake 4 off the shelf two weeks ago, never installed on windows period, about halfway through, plays extra nice on my amd64/gentoo/SLI/n590/7900gt, having a tough time protecting Lt. Strauss though. Have a pretty big list of titles here, all of loki, bought rise of the triad and descent off ebay just the other night to play under linux on my gp2x too, heck I buy almost every commercial game released for linux, assumed everybody did.
On a side note, I think a DirectX type API for Linux might entice Game publishers and Devs to support Linux, and with games come more users!
It isn’t the lack of APIs that prevents game publishers to start supporting linux: there is OpenGL, OpenAL and NMM frameworks. The actual reason is a choice between investing efforts into widely supported platform vs platform that has a small % of target audience (who have Windows to play games anyway).
What I want from Linux is a Un*x for my PC. If I had to pay a reasonable amount to buy it, I would do so (hey, I did back in the days of packaged distros).
I really don’t care THAT much if evince is open source and acrobat isn’t, I will choose the tool that works best for me (availability of source can be very useful or a necessity for some cases, but certainly not all. How many Linux users actually hack, nowadays?)
So let’s not confuse “Linux distribution, the product” with open source development method or social reform ideologies. Three distinct things for me.
Applications->Add/Remove…
Search for ‘mp3’
Choose ‘gstreamer extra plugins’
If I remember right this will even enable universe/multiverse for you but I did all of this with synaptic so I can’t test.
Arch/Gentoo/FreeBSD will install all the necessary, “highly illegal” codecs by default.
The most popular distributions (Ubuntu, Fedore) have to cripple the software they ship by default for legal reasons.
Fine. Could you at least make it fast and obvious to restore the missing functionality?
IANAL, but assisting someone in doing something illegal is illegal by itself.
– Gilboa
Edited 2006-10-25 12:29
//assisting someone in doing something illegal is illegal by itself.//
ooookkkkaaaaaayyyyyy.
Now what exactly was illegal?
I don’t want to hear bluster & theory & FUD, I want to hear what act was illegal, and why.
Especially, what was illegal for most of the people on this earth who are not Americans.
Edited 2006-10-25 12:35
“Now what exactly was illegal?
I don’t want to hear bluster & theory & FUD, I want to hear what act was illegal, and why.”
I’d suggest you start here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mp3#Licensing_and_patent_issues
If you’re RedHat or Novel the -theory- of getting sued by Thomson ceases to be “theory” and becomes a reality.
Even the small act of helping a user to obtain an unlicensed mp3 decoder can get you sued.
As long as the IP laws don’t get changed, most/all enterprise backed
distribution will not touch unlicensed/dubious nature software. End of game.
If -you- are willing to risk -your- ass, why don’t -you- create a
Fedora/SUSE/etc derivative that includes all the missing components.
– Gilboa
BTW, I’m not a U.S. citizen.
Even according to the patent holder:
“infringe the patent rights of Fraunhofer and THOMSON. To make, sell and/or distribute products using the [MPEG Layer-3] standard and thus our patents, you need to obtain a license under these patents from us.”
My obtaining and running an mp3 software encoder and/or software decoder written in a country where Fraunhofer and THOMSON hold no valid patent in no way constitutes and act that can be characterised in any way as “make, sell and/or distribute products using the [MPEG Layer-3] standard”.
You have yet to identify any illegal act of using mp3 functionality on Linux. Even illegal according to the patent holders own (possibly exaggerated) claims.
Try again.
Edited 2006-10-25 13:11
*Sigh*
Where did you see me say anything about the user.
Have you read my post -before- jumping the gun you’d see that I simply said:
“IANAL, but assisting someone in doing something illegal is illegal by itself.”
If distribution A helps a certain user B obtain unlicensed MP3 codec from distributer C,
he is helping distributer C infringe the patent held by Thomson.
Now, if you can show where I said anything about “mp3 being illegal to use”
you just -might- look less of a flame-baiting troll.
– Gilboa
//Where did you see me say anything about the user. //
If you are not saying anything about the user, and the context of what the user wants to do on his/her Linux system, then why pray tell are you posting on a thread about “Give Users What They Want”?
I’d agree that it is a bit tricky (given the legal climate in America) for an American-based distribution to answer the call: “A Call to Distros: Give Users What They Want”.
Fortunately we have distros like:
Distribution Ubuntu
Home Page http://www.ubuntu.com/
Origin Isle of Man
Distribution openSUSE (formerly SUSE Linux)
Home Page http://www.opensuse.org/
Origin Germany
Distribution Mandriva Linux
Home Page http://www.mandrivalinux.com/
http://www.mandriva.com/
Origin France
… which can be functional because they most fortunately are not made in America.
Edited 2006-10-25 13:36
“If you are not saying anything about the user, and the context of what the user wants to do on his/her Linux system, then why pray tell are you posting on a thread about “Give Users What They Want”?
Because by asking distribution to “give the users what they want” you are actually asking them to break the U.S (and not only the U.S.) law by either distributing and/or by actively helping someone distribute unlicensed material. (Ignoring the obvious fact that OSS distribution have a vested interest in getting the users to want something else…)
BTW, I’m not sure about (free) Mandriva, but AFAIR the latest OpenSUSE release doesn’t include patented codecs. Am I wrong?
– Gilboa
//Because by asking distribution to “give the users what they want” you are actually asking them to break the U.S (and not only the U.S.) law by either distributing and/or by actively helping someone distribute unlicensed material. (Ignoring the obvious fact that OSS distribution have a vested interest in getting the users to want something else…) //
Sigh!!
It is not breaking any law!
You claim that this is illegal by distributing “unlicensed” material. How would an American media company hold a license over software written by another party in another country?
An American media company may license PowerDVD’s method of playing a DVD, or Xing’s method, or another software DVD player’s method, but if DeCSS or libdvdcss use a different method then that has nothing to do with the American media company.
You Americans seem to get utterly confused over this IP stuff.
Let me try to paint you the picture: there are 3 types of “IP” protection.
(1) trademark. This is OK, because neither libdvdcss nor deCSS call themselves “PowerDVD” or similar. No trademark infringement.
(2) copyright. Neither libdvdcss nor DeCSS are copies of any other DVD player code. No copyright infringements.
(3) patent. It is possible that one of DeCSS or libdvdcss (but not both) might use a patented method of playing a DVD, but since no company has ever made that claim I doubt that either one does.
So you still have yet to point out exactly why it is illegal to run libdvdcss or DeCSS. There is no law being broken if one uses either of these to play a DVD.
To use either of them in the process of copying a DVD would be illegal … but even then, it is making the copy of the DVD that is illegal, not the use of libdvdcss or DeCSS per se.
The reason why the act copying a DVD is illegal is because of the copyright held on the DVD content. The copyright holder has permission to say who can and cannot make copies of teh DVD content. Neither DeCSS not libdvdcss in any way are a copy of DVD content data, so the holder of the copyright over the content of the DVD data has no “standing to suit” over libdvdcss or DeCSS.
Edited 2006-10-25 23:11
“there are 3 types of “IP” protection. “
Postscript: In addition, in North America only, you have the DMCA. This law makes it an offesne to break or circumvent any “copy protection system”. If I take a standard DVD, and make a copy of all of the bits, then the resultant copy DVD will still play … CSS notwithstanding. CSS does not prevent anyone from marking a working copy, so therefore CSS is not a copy protection system.
No-one has yet pointed out in what way libdvdcss or DeCSS break any law at all.
To say that libdvdcss or DeCSS are illegal is just repeating a “big lie” put out by Hollywood interests.
Americans are so incredibly gullible, they tend to believe big lies like this.
Edited 2006-10-25 23:19
As I said, in the start, IANAL. Neither are you so it seems.
RedHat (as SUSE and Mandriva) should decide if their legal standing is strong enough to withstand a patent attack by Thomson and/or DVDCCA. Whether -you- think their legal standing is solid enough is -irrelevant- as most of them think otherwise.
As I said before, nothing stops you from taking Thomson and/or DVD CCA on by yourself by creating a multimedia rich distribution.
– Gilboa
(3) patent. It is possible that one of DeCSS or libdvdcss (but not both) might use a patented method of playing a DVD, but since no company has ever made that claim I doubt that either one does.
You conveniently ignore the fact the Thomson/Fraunhofer -did- assert their patent by dragging unlicensed mp3 players/distributors to court and that the DVD CCA -did- try to do the same. (But AFAIR, failed.)
It’s very nice of you to ask Linux distributions (especially U.S. ones) to enter a apperant mine field when -you- have nothing to risk. I wonder if you would have thought the same if it was your -own- bank account on the line…
– Gilboa
//You conveniently ignore the fact the Thomson/Fraunhofer -did- assert their patent by dragging unlicensed mp3 players/distributors to court and that the DVD CCA -did- try to do the same. (But AFAIR, failed.) //
You misunderstand, I think.
It is possible to have mp3 player software that does not violate the Thomson/Fraunhofer patent(s).
A patent is granted for “a method of doing <something>”.
If a particular mp3 decoder does the decoding via another (and different) method, then no dough for Thomson/Fraunhofer.
This is why, for example, I mention that one of DeCSS and libdvdcss MAY violate a patent, but not both. DeCSS and libdvdcss use different methods of reading & playing a DVD. Even if one violates a patent, the other doesn’t.
BTW, how did we jump over to Thomson/Fraunhofer (who claim that they hold a patent on a method for mp3) when we were talking about CSS?
BTW, there are many different mp3 handlers for linux. libmad, bladeenc, gogo, fluendo, lame … to name but a few. They all use different methods, AFAIK. The Thomson/Fraunhofer can only have a chilling effect at worst on one or two of these different methods, AFAIK.
Which one of these do you think Thomson/Fraunhofer has ever gone after? None of them AFAIK.
Fluendo is one that claims to be properly licensed anyway:
http://www.fluendo.com/resources/fluendo_mp3.php
Edited 2006-10-26 10:45
Your missing my point completely.
I’m not saying the distributing a gstreamer-bad and/or DeCSS is legal or illegal. I’m not a layer and as such, have insufficient knowledge to determine if you’re wrong or right.
I -am- saying that distributing such material and/or helping to distribute it is too risky (and rightly so) for most major (especially U.S. based ones).
The only way to find out if DeCSS and/or MP3 codecs indeed violates copy-write/patent/what-ever is to get your ass dragged into court by DVDCCA/Thomson and win – problem is, losing might mean end to said ass – a risk that I, for one, is unwilling to take.
– Gilboa
//I’m not saying the distributing a gstreamer-bad and/or DeCSS is legal or illegal. I’m not a layer and as such, have insufficient knowledge to determine if you’re wrong or right. I -am- saying that distributing such material and/or helping to distribute it is too risky (and rightly so) for most major (especially U.S. based ones).//
I agree with this. It is too risky for distributions to distribute software of this nature. Even though DVDCCA/MPA/Thomson have gone to court with these claims AND LOST doesn’t mean they won’t try it again.
This is a risk most distributors cannot afford to take, even when it is perfectly clear that DVDCCA/MPA/Thomson don’t have a leg to stand on.
The “fringe” Linux distributions that support mp3 out-of-the-box probably use something like fluendo, which claims to be licensed.
Fraunhofer went after BladeEnc & 8hz, at least, probably others. See http://www.theregister.co.uk/2001/06/26/mp3_owners_get_stroppy/
//Fraunhofer went after BladeEnc & 8hz, at least, probably others. See http://www.theregister.co.uk/2001/06/26/mp3_owners_get_stroppy/
//
It looks like bladeenc stopped development circa 2004.
http://www.free-codecs.com/download/BladeEnc.htm
Fraunhofer went after BladeEnc in 2000.
Doesn’t look like Fraunhofer had a case.
That site has 0.94.2, which is the last version. The development stopped in 2002, not in 2004. See http://bladeenc.mp3.no/skeleton/news.html :
“Latest News
2002-08-11 BladeEnc development officially discontinued.
I guess most of you read the writing on the wall a long time ago, so I just thought I should make this official: I’m no longer actively developing BladeEnc and I don’t intend to continue development ever.
There are five main reasons that I’ve stopped working on BladeEnc, these are:
[snip]
# The patent issues. Having to hassle the legal aspects, see much of the encoder scene disappear and finally be forced to take away the binaries from my homepage took most of the fun out of it. When I started there were numerous projects to make mp3 encoders and the scene was bustling with activity and enthusiasm and I loved to hang around there, the lawyers killed all that.”
Just use your favourite search engine, and you’ll find it all.
//That site has 0.94.2, which is the last version. The development stopped in 2002, not in 2004. //
Hmmmm.
Yet LAME carries on development to this day, originally based on 8hz, then re-started with dist10.
http://lame.sourceforge.net/index.php
It would seem that some mp3 handlers might use different methods to others, and the legal scavengers can only go after some implementations.
Edited 2006-10-26 12:11
Nope.
Quoted from the technical Faq at http://lame.sourceforge.net/tech-FAQ.txt
6. Does LAME use any MP3 patented technology?
LAME, as the name says, is *not* an encoder. LAME is a development project which uses the open source model to improve MP3 technology.
Many people believe that compiling this code and distributing an encoder which uses this code would violate some patents (in the US, Europe and Japan). However, *only* a patent lawyer is qualified to
make this determination. The LAME project tries to avoid all these legal issues by only releasing source code, much like the ISO distributes MP3 “demonstration” source code. Source code is considered as speech, which may contain descriptions of patented
technology. Descriptions of patents are in the public
domain.
IANAL, but to me, it seems LAME dodges the legal bullets because of the special form of distribution rather than because of the methods used.
In reply to your post from above :
[SNIP]
Americans are sooooooo stoopid sometimes.
PS: why is there no take-down notice for this then?
I’m not aware of newer developements concerning this
http://forum.videolan.org/viewtopic.php?t=14608
but if it still holds true, then I guess a whole lotta more countries are “equalllly stoopid”.
Regards
EDIT Rephrased last sentence
EDIT2: Found this links, they sum it up more precicsely :
http://www.videolan.org/eucd.html
http://eucd.info/index.php?English-readers
Edited 2006-10-26 12:43
Well, that’s a problem for citizens in USA.
Many at OSN apparently assumes that the crappy laws of USA can be applied world wide. However, they can’t. And we don’t need those crappy laws. We are perfectly capable of creating our own crappy laws on other issues
I’m quite amaze to see the poll result… Linux had video driver issues before the Vista… and even before windows XP… I remember how I configured my sis6215 1 MB video card in 1998 … and I really hope someday ATI & NVedia drivers will be easy configurable and will be shipped with each distro… Video drivers are not only designed for gamers but most of the people need them to get the optimum output from hardware for which they have paid for. Windows users please take out idea that Video accelaration is only used for games… their are lot better things to do in Life then just playing games… lot of CAD programmers can benifitt from better video performance… lot of graphics designers can benifit from these drivers…
When Sun hurrys up and open sources Java before we all die, we can scratch that one off the list. If Banshee replaced rhythmbox as the default music player, the legal fluendo MP3 plugin could be installed by default. Picasa is a non-issue since its a crummy wine port. Just use F-spot instead. Evince is not feature for feature up to par with Acrobat Reader but it is damn close and is pre-installed. I don’t see how Google Earth is important as anything more than a toy.
The drivers have a whole ‘nother bag of issues with them. I would prefer if I was asked if I wanted to install them during the system install instead of afterwards.
//When Sun hurrys up and open sources Java before we all die, we can scratch that one off the list. If Banshee replaced rhythmbox as the default music player, the legal fluendo MP3 plugin could be installed by default. Picasa is a non-issue since its a crummy wine port. Just use F-spot instead. Evince is not feature for feature up to par with Acrobat Reader but it is damn close and is pre-installed. I don’t see how Google Earth is important as anything more than a toy.
The drivers have a whole ‘nother bag of issues with them. I would prefer if I was asked if I wanted to install them during the system install instead of afterwards.//
Funnily enough, Windows doesn’t come with Java nor with nvidia drivers either, as it turns out.
To get these two items installed on Windows requires more searching, just as much downlaoding and about two or three more reboots than it does on Linux.
As various peer-to-peer court cases have successfully shown, you can’t sit and pretend that it’s the user’s resposibility if the purpose of your operation is to help your users violate other people’s “intellectual property” for commercial gain.
//As various peer-to-peer court cases have successfully shown, you can’t sit and pretend that it’s the user’s resposibility if the purpose of your operation is to help your users violate other people’s “intellectual property” for commercial gain.//
What has this comment got to do with my playing my legally purchased DVD on my legally purchased computing equipment using my perfectly cromulent and legally purchased DVD dirve?
What is a DVD for if not to be played?
Especially since I am not doing any of those things in America, which is apparently no longer the land of the free but has now apparently become the land of the persecuted.
PS: Not only am I not doing any of those things in America, but the software I installed wasn’t written in America, nor was it obtained from America, nor am I runnining it in America, nor did I buy the DVD I am watching in America … in fact, since it is not a region 1 DVD and it is PAL, most players in America wouldn’t play it anyway.
Edited 2006-10-25 11:21
I understand your frustration with the holders of the rights to respective “intellectual property”.
Unfortunately, I believe they value their goal to maximize the profits collected on that “IP” higher than the frustration of Linux users.
There are two ways for Linux on the desktop to succeed:
play the game by the rules, or change the game.
For the former approach, there are distributions that add proprietary components after securing redistribution rights with the right holders. For the latter approach, there are distributions that avoid distributing proprietary components and technology with non-permissive patent licenses.
The approach advocated in the article, to pretend that the responsibility for legal issues in the software catalogue provided by a commercial distribution can be trasferred from the distributor to the user, on the other hand, is not going to work.
If a distribution taking that approach ever succeeds far enough on the desktop to make a dent in the revenue stream of the right holders on the technology it is distributing without adequate legal arrangements, ‘their laywers’ will have to talk with that distribution’s lawyers about the small print, and shut it down.
Licensing and redistribution of proprietary technology is a big business. The rules of the game are very unlikely to change to a ‘free for all if you click on ‘YES’ here’ model to accomodate a rise of Linux on the desktop.
It’s frustrating, but that’s how it is.
Eugenia,
here’s a list of programs for you:
1) Don’t allow redistribution
Google Earth, Picasa
Macromedia
WiFi drivers and firmware
MS Fonts
2) GPL violation
GPL-incompatible kernel modules
3) Illegal in some countries
Multimedia support
4) We already have better and Free programs
Adobe Acrobat Reader
Opera
Picasa
5) We will have a Free replacement in about 6 months
Sun Java web plugin
6) We don’t like to promote closed standards, which promote user lock in
Macromedia Flash
Skype (and maybe Gizmo too)
Try to understand that the distributions you’re speaking of don’t have the only goal of “world domination”. If that was their one goal, they could completely ignore the law and distribute software on sites like thepiratebay.org or whatever would help spread it.
Some of these systems have as one of their most important goals to promote Free software and open standards. They would not be helping that cause by shipping software that work against that, even if they would be making someone’s lives easier.
You also completely ignore the fact that a lot of users wouldn’t want to use a distribution that promotes proprietary software and closed standards. Perhaps the simple fact that distributions which enable proprietary software by default are nowhere near as popular as the ones that don’t should tell you something.
It’s fine that you don’t agree. Eric Raymond doesn’t agree with these projects as well. The solution? Just go and find an alternative; use it, promote it, contribute to it. If you think the Free guys are wrong, that’s fine. They already know a lot of people that feel just like you, and they decided that it’s better to fail but stick to what they believe than to do otherwise.
And just to make you happy, some notes:
Matt Zimmerman is, I think, working on how to make sure the user gets appropriate feedback when they can’t get a file to play on Totem or Rhythmbox.
Macromedia will distribute Flash 9 properly, that is with DEB and RPM packages.
Installing Skype is much easier on Ubuntu than on Windows. This is also valid for any proprietary software distributed correctly (binary packages in RPM or DEB, instead of tarballs), thanks to gdebi. If you like a piece of proprietary software that isn’t distributed this way, bug the authors and not Free software developers.
“Installing Skype is much easier on Ubuntu than on Windows.”
Really? I use an AMD64 version and utterly failed to get Skype to install in (K)Ubuntu. Installing in Windows XP X64 and Vista was a total no-brainer. Wish it weren’t so.
Hmm… installing Skype on Gentoo was easier than on Windows. And it works without problems.
Myself, I consider my installation uncomplete until the time I:
– Downloaded and installed the nvidia drivers with 3D accelleration
– Installed Mplayer, the Win32-codecs and the ‘vanilla’ xine-lib
– Installed the MS (Web)Fonts (although I can probably add those through yast as well)
– I disabled IPv6 so my network connection actually works ‘well’
– I can play Flash objects embedded in webpages and most video/audio embedded in webpages (e.g. movie trailers)
– Amarok can play my collection of ripped mp3 songs
After that’s done, I let go a deep sigh, and start with the fun stuff: wallpaper, icons, UI style and window decoration, …
I did a quick rundown of the list, and noticed that most of the applications on it are as easy to install in Linux as they are in Windows.
Besides, I suspect that most of those applications are on the list just to satisfy the inner geek in people. There are going to be relatively few people who care about VMware player, because there is very little that you can do with it without jumping through hoops anyway. I doubt that many people who use IE just because that is what Windows had to offer are going to care about the distinction between Firefox and Opera. Something similar can be said about the Acrobat Reader, albeit the familiarity of Adobe’s name may comfort people. Does anyone outside of developers even use Java anymore? And, at least in some distributions, installing Flash is a question of clicking an icon in the web browser and following some instructions (which is similar to what you are suggesting anyway).
Well… I have had to FORCE myself to stay with Linux. I’ve tried it several times.
My reason for going to linux?
I can’t afford Photoshop, SONAR, MS Office. So with Linux I use the GIMP, Audacity, and OOo.
However, I STILL can’t get my WiFi card working… Flash still behaves terribly. A lot of media found on teh net simply doesn’t work. Thankfully I stumbled accross Automatix which helped.. but didn’t solve my most basic problems.
Here’s the deal. Are Linux distros Operating Systems or members only clubs? If they are not OS’s then why are we discussing them on this page? If it they are OS’s then wouldn’t it be best if a user could actually use them to operate their system easily? Isn’t this the whole point of an OS? I mean if I wanted to do every thing by hand I’d go back to MSDOS which NEVER crashed once… and likely doesn’t suffer from too many viruses either.
Linux is special and powerful because it lets users do whatever they want… .or does it?
Basically the thing that holds Linux up right now is it lets EXPERTS do whatever they want.. users are left to scour the net trying to find some “written for experts” explanation of a problem that ALL users must overcome to get simply usability out of their distros.
Doesn’t it seem absolutely stupid that we (I’m including my self now after the blood sweat and tears of three months) demand all new users pull their hair out for months so they can be part of the club?
Imagine if there was a new automobile maker, they gave you a free car but you could only drive it off road (because comercial cars drive on paved surfaces). The car was stable and safe… and those who used it couldn’t imagine why anyone wouldn’t want one. Many users did manage to get the car to work on paved surfaces but the process was close to a “trade secret”.
The guy with a family who needs to get to work would never choose this car because he wants the car to take him to work. He isn’t looking for another job of making the car do what any other car does, he just wants to use the thing.
Linux will truly impact the “market” if while experts can fidle with it to their heart’s content, new users can actually use it for their daily lives without having to become experts.
I think you should ask yourself whether or not it is really worth it to switch to a free Linux distro in your case. If you really want to run Linux, maybe you whould try for instance Xandros or SuSE instead and get a smoother Windows-like experience and get support by a help desk.
And just for the record, GIMP, Audacity, and OOo are all available for Windows as well. No need to switch.
My reason for going to linux?
I can’t afford Photoshop, SONAR, MS Office. So with Linux I use the GIMP, Audacity, and OOo.
You can use those apps on Windows too
Ya. but he’s making a choice to use Linux rather than use pirated versions of these commercial apps.
Linux has tons of problems when it comes to normal (i.e. non geek) users. I mean the people that use computers for what they were tought for in the first place: resolve problems and not be the problem themselves.
Linux will start (not finish, just start) to be ready for normal people when:
– You will not need to be a techie. Normal users use computers as a tool. They couldn’t care less about their inner workings. Expecting users to spend hours, days, weeks and months browsing the internet, reading, etc to do what, with other systems, take a tenth of the time is the fastest path to get them to Windows or Mac. You don’t care? Fine, then don’t complain about the Linux’s tiny market share. Would you use a TV (even a free one) if, each time you want to change channel, you have to provide frequency, vertical refresh and such? Wouldn’t you rush to buy an appliance that doesn’t drive you nuts? You get the picture.
– You will not need to compile anything. Normal users doesn’t know, doesn’t need to know and doesn’t have to know what a compiler is, let alone struggle with compilation errors, makefiles and the such. An user know exactly 0 about all the techno bubble that gets spit from the compiler, he may not even understand English. Not to mention the fact that, often, compilers doesn’t get installed by default by distros (and this a good thing since users don’t have to use them).
– You will not need to use the shell. Normal users doesn’t even need to be aware that such a tool exists. Go tell a Mac/Win user to open a shell and see what happens. Strangely enough they are perfectly able to run their systems without it. Why can’t we? Why are we stuck to edit files by hand (vi anyone)? Why can’t X default to some low resolution instead of throwing you at the prompt and leave you in the cold if, for example, the video drivers have problems?
– You will be able to install stuff with a few clicks. For God’s sake use wizards to perform installations. Don’t expect users to untar, make, make install, –prefix, emerge, rpm, apt-get, pacman, kernel-headers and so on and so forth. Next->next->…->next->Finish is what the users wants to see, no hassle, no f**king dependencies, no compilers, no .confs. And proggies should be distro indipendent. Take a look at these pages (http://www.skype.com/download/skype/windows/ and http://www.skype.com/download/skype/linux/) and have a good laugh (It depressed me actually). And what if I have Ubuntu? Ubuntu is Debian based, but why should I know? To the eyes a user it’s Linux. Just Linux, not Ubuntu, Fedora, Red hat or one of the other 2^32 distros out there.
– You will not need a broadband connection to survive. Try install something and have fun searching the internet for dependencies(the right version of course that depends on the version of the program you are so naive to be wanting to install, possibly on the kernel of your machine and god knows what else). Now spend other time browsing the net to discover how the hell this pgm has to be configured, possibly downloading recursive howtos that, if you are techie enough to understand them, often put you in a loop (each one asks the read another one – to do A read B which in turn asks you to read C which in turn asks you to read A…) . Linux is often praised like a good system for the third world. Sure, as soon as they can afford broadband connection. Why can’t they download a single file (no dependencies), at school for example, share it between them (distro-indipendence), and install it (next,next.finish) as it works for other systems?
– There will be a stable API for drivers, at least among the same kernel family (2.6.x, 2.8.x, etc). Go ahead and tell me that Linux supports more hardware than any other OS, and I’ll tell you: “Great! But unless it supports my newest stuff, like Windows do, I really don’t care if it runs some ancient punchcard reader.”. Why so little support for Linux? Manufactures are evil, I hear you say, the don’t release specs. True. But, here in the real world you have to live with and give them a chance to write closed source drivers without the fear of having them trashed by the 1000th change in the APIs. Idealism is good, but once in while a trip to planet earth would not hurt.
– Some people change attitude. Saying “It’s free. Like it or leave” doesn’t help. Some people just can’t help, not everyone is a programmer. Other people just don’t have the time. Others would make a mess and better stay away. The truth is that, unless you are one of those who want Linux to remain an elitist tool, you have to face the user requests. A project, being it a kernel or a car or anything else, has success when it gives its target users what THEY want and not the other way around. It’s not users that have to adapt to Linux. It’s Linux that has to adapt to users. If it had been so years ago, now the situation would be much different.
Well, I wanted to write a few lines, but this got far too long (even tough I didn’t touch all I wanted to). Better stop here. Last warning: english is not my mother language so please don’t flame me for that. I’ve done the best I can.
PS. When talking about Linux I’m actually referring at the whole system, kernel+userland(X, Desktop env, etc). Just to avoid misunderstandings.
I disagree with the suggestion in the article that new GNU/Linux users need non-free software. Instead, I’d suggest that most new users have no real need for all this non-free stuff — it’s in most cases just something extra that most new users can easily live without. But articles like this are harmful because they can incite new users to think that they actually miss something if they don’t have these mostly useless extras. It’s like telling mobile phone users that their phone is a worthless piece of crap if they can’t take photos with it.
Free software idealism has some very palpable consequences that the people who consider themselves pragmatists tend to forget way too easily. Supporting free software means that we may have some high quality software available for free also tomorrow instead of mere crippleware that’s only offered free in order to get you interested enough to buy the commercial product.
But, OK, let’s be practical and suppose that most users don’t give a rat’s ass about getting quality software for free. Let’s be pragmatic and suppose that most users are more than willing to commercialize Linux and to buy tomorrow what they can now get for free. Let’s be realist and suppose that we all want to give away our future freedom by using binary blobs today.
So what can Debian do to help people who are realists and pragmatists enough that they want to shoot themselves in the foot? Well, Debian has JAVA, Flashplayer and msttcorefonts available in the non-free package repository. Multimedia codecs (libdvdcss2 and w32codecs), mplayer, realplayer and acroread have been made available from a third party repository. http://wiki.debian.org/MultimediaCodecs
For Ati and Nvidia graphics drivers and for setting up WiFi there are some Debian-specific links and HOWTOs available:
http://wiki.debian.org/AtiHowTo
http://wiki.debian.org/NvidiaHowTo
http://wiki.debian.org/NvidiaGraphicsDrivers
http://wiki.debian.org/WiFi
In my opinion, pissing in your pants in order to keep warm in a freezing weather isn’t the smartest possible thing to do. But if that’s what users really want, then go ahead and do it. It’s possible also in Debian. No nice GUI, though. You need to RTFM.
//I disagree with the suggestion in the article that new GNU/Linux users need non-free software. Instead, I’d suggest that most new users have no real need for all this non-free stuff — it’s in most cases just something extra that most new users can easily live without.//
I don’t understand this stuff about “non-free”.
I can download (at least equivalent) open-source software for most of this functionality. Just because there is some mumblings and grumblings about it in some far-away land called America does not have any influence towards making it “non-free” for me.
//Debian has JAVA, Flashplayer and msttcorefonts available in the non-free package repository. Multimedia codecs (libdvdcss2 and w32codecs), mplayer, realplayer and acroread//
//But if that’s what users really want, then go ahead and do it. It’s possible also in Debian. No nice GUI, though. You need to RTFM.//
Still, far easier to find and install than the equivalent software in Windows.
Zero cost for Debian too, but not so for Windows.
I used them on Windows first. However, on windows none of them run very well. There is a dramatic performance gain by going to Linux. OOo is next to un-useable on my Laptop with XP running. Forget trying to do Multi-Track recording.
Gimp is ok in Windows though.
I also use Hydrogen (drum machine) which sort of works in Windows… but not really.
Even Blender “works” in XP.
Thanks for your comments, but it’s not just that I want the possibility of using the software – I want it to work well. That’s the same thing most people want in an OS.
Some of the fuss that I’ve been reading about is related to multimedia CODECs. It is important to note that many of them are either patented or trade secrets. It isn’t the open source community that is restricting their use under Linux, but the people who own the IP on those CODECs. Yes, there are convoluted work-arounds to get them working. On the other hand, they may be considered illegal. That can get the Linux distributor shut-down, or worse. Which is a big part of the reason why the big ones don’t include them (some the little distributions don’t care as much because they have less to lose).
Even in the case of commercial software like Acrobat and Flash, which are definitely meant to run under Linux, many companies don’t like it if you redistribute their product and may not like it if you downloaded their software through some sort of front-end. Again, lawyer hell.
So please don’t blame it on the open source community.
Finally: if you choose to use a distribution like Debian, which has a social license mandating the strict adherence of free software, don’t blame them if they don’t have your favourite non-free application. That would be like whining about Microsoft not offering an open source version of Windows. But at least you have the choice to use a different Linux distribution, one which will suit your needs better. Microsoft does not give you that choice at all!
//It is important to note that many of them are either patented or trade secrets. It isn’t the open source community that is restricting their use under Linux, but the people who own the IP on those CODECs. Yes, there are convoluted work-arounds to get them working. On the other hand, they may be considered illegal. That can get the Linux distributor shut-down, or worse.//
It is important to note that such could only be considered illegal in America. Any software patents involved could only have American scope, since software patents are a nonsense just about anywhere else.
Under any jurisdiction at all, trade secrets are only secrets while they are still a secret. If there is an open source implementation, it is hardly a secret any longer. The only possible illegal action here is for some individual to have illegally revealed a trade secret … and only that individual is culpable under the law. If a trade secret is reverse engineered, then no-one is culpable at all, and there is no legal protection once the secret is out.
Once the secret is out, its out, and the law cannot stop Linux from subsequently using it (no matter how the secret got out in the first place).
Back to patents … America cannot shut down Linux. Linux is international. What is America going to do … ban all Americans from using Linux? How clever would that be? America is already enough of a laughing stock, but to ban themselves from using new technology that the rest of the world is happily forging ahead with … well that would reaching new heights of stupidity, even by American standards.
Edited 2006-10-25 12:25
What Linux needs is what ESR said, not packages for distros.
Let’s take on FC6:
– Java 1.4.2 is now preinstalled.
– Flash is easy to install. (and if you run 64-bit it only takes downloading Firefox tar.gz, unpack somewhere in home folder and copying flash plugin inside, I currently use FFox2 with all the wizz bang. The only problem you might face is need to install compat-libstdc++33 or something like that)
– Nvu rpm also works from site
– Skype? Same as FFox, pull tar.gz, unpack
– NVidia? Livna, currently running beta with AIGLX
– Mono? Ships complete now, the rest is in extras
– Acrobat Reader? Same story as in Windows. Go to adobe.com, download install
– VMWare-Player? Same as on Windows, vmware.com, download, install
– Google Earth, Picassa? Same as Windows. Download, install
– mplayer? Works from livna
– mp3 codecs? Yep, one could make a package like gstreamer does. gstreamer-complete. That repository does not exist for fc6 yet, shame on them, it was a whole day already. After they put that up “yum install gstreamer-complete”
Get the feeling? Its not hard installation, its the lack of choice (don’t talk about linux users, so no flame on this one please, I’m talking about typical Windows user who has to try complete CD of shareware just to decide it is crap. What a world users crapping their computer just for the reason they don’t have something better to do).
equals win for Windows and Mac. No one with enough skills to deliver a polished consumer product in the Linux world.
And I don’t see this situation improving in the next year either.
equals win for Windows and Mac.
PC manufacturer fragmentation…
equals win for Commodore. Oh, sorry. NOT.
Free market fragmentation…
equals win for Soviet command economy. Oh, sorry. NOT, again.
No one with enough skills to deliver a polished consumer product in the Linux world.
Hmm. SuSE? SLED? Ubuntu?
And I don’t see this situation improving in the next year either.
No, the Windows trollboy (troll and fanboy) situation isn’t going to improve in the next year, either.
I am glad we both agree (linux desktop has no immediate future).
With PC-BSD, you just have to download the software application onto your desktop, double-click and install like one your Microsoft Windows computer. Most of the aforementioned applications are available on their download page.
On the previous page someone said that getting a DVD or MP3 to play on Windows is harder by a factor of many times than it is on Linux.
It’s possible I admit that this user was refering to “Windows 3.1.1 for Work Groups”
Windows XP comes with full media support out of the Box.. IE Install Windows (takes longer than Kubuntu to do but it works when it’s done) then insert DVD or media containing MP3… presto media plays.
I at least partially understand the legal issues that distro’s like Ubuntu are avoiding by not making some things defaults. What I can’t imagine is what’s SO offenstive to Linux users that REAL people might want their system to simply work without having to read forum after forum and highly techinical articles written for people who don’t need the info contained in them.
//On the previous page someone said that getting a DVD or MP3 to play on Windows is harder by a factor of many times than it is on Linux.
It’s possible I admit that this user was refering to “Windows 3.1.1 for Work Groups”
Windows XP comes with full media support out of the Box..//
You are kidding!
Windows XP out of the box is very likely to fail utterly to even recognise the DVD drive.
Have you ever installed Windows on to a blank HDD?
It takes hours, it is exceedingly vulnerable by default, it is likely to be stuck initially at 640×480 VGA resolution, and it comes with next-to-zero applications. Unless you count calc & notepad.
You have to feed in extra CDs (that weren’t in the Windows box) before you get much support for most of the hardware. If you don’t have the hardware vendor’s extra CDs, it can take days before you can have a workable system.
Edited 2006-10-25 12:46
On the previous page someone said that getting a DVD or MP3 to play on Windows is harder by a factor of many times than it is on Linux.
It’s possible I admit that this user was refering to “Windows 3.1.1 for Work Groups”
Funny, but patronisingly sarcastic and irrelevant.
Windows XP comes with full media support out of the Box.. IE Install Windows (takes longer than Kubuntu to do but it works when it’s done) then insert DVD or media containing MP3… presto media plays.
Yes, but you have to sit and install lots of drivers, and potentially lots of software after that.
I at least partially understand the legal issues that distro’s like Ubuntu are avoiding by not making some things defaults. What I can’t imagine is what’s SO offenstive to Linux users that REAL people might want their system to simply work without having to read forum after forum and highly techinical articles written for people who don’t need the info contained in them.
It isn’t offensive to Linux users. It’s offensive to product manufacturers.
//Yes, but you have to sit and install lots of drivers, and potentially lots of software after that. //
… none of which actually comes out of the Windows box …
!!!
Thankyou for making the point.
Edited 2006-10-25 13:23
OK it was sarcastic
As for installing Drivers on windows the default ones have always worked for me – though I would install the Graphics and Audio drivers from the hardware venders.
I’ve never HAD to install more drivers than that, although when I was a gamer I would tweak everything (familiarity helped my experience, it wasn’t required for it)
“it isn’t offensive to Linux users. It’s offensive to product manufactures”
There is some truth in your statement. If the hardware companies would support Linux more we’d have an easier time. Even still, read this thread… there are plenty of users here who think the “expirence” of Linux needs to include what many people find next to impossible.
I’ve given up on WiFi… my Laptop is now a slow, uncomfortable Desktop. Automatix can’t even get the thing to work.
I’m sure there is a way to make it work.. but I’m too busy using the thing to spend all my time getting it to work.
All this being said I do very much enjoy the control I have in Kubuntu
Spend ten minutes reading the system documentation. Seriously, pretty much everything most people need to get is describe in easy to understand terms in the docs. Also though, if you’re happy with windows, stick with it, there’s nothing wrong with it for most people. If you’re not willing to put up with “the big bad OS from Redmond” then feel free to switch, but the fact is you’re going to need to do some research and get used to a new way of doing things. If your hardware is well supported in my experience getting your system up and running is quite easy if you take the time to do a few minutes of research. Computers are complex machines, no OS frankly is simply pick-up and play.
Well nice poll. As for results, all these points mentioned are also valid for latest windows (XPsp2)… maybe except for MS fonts :p
Most people will install ATI or nVidia drivers on windows, so it should be of no surprise if one has to do this on linux too. If he doesn’t have to? Nice, way to go.
It would be nice to have some functionality and programs added in by default, to gain some advantage ahead windows. On the other hand I’m fine with installing Acrobat reader be it on windows or linux. If I can read PDFs after first boot.. well, I’d say ‘neat’.
So, yes i agree that it would be nice to have something more included (codecs & libs most notably) or at least provide some easy way how to add it. But then again, user should not be afraid to install things ‘by hand’. Hey it’s for free, so reading one or two web pages in order to make it work to my satisfaction is no biggie..
To my knowledge Linspire and now Freespire have the legal codecs we all want. Why not get behind them and stop whining if Ubuntu is too cheap to pay for codecs to be added legally.
There are more issues to consider than whether such-and-such a distro has legal codecs preinstalled. For example, the last Freespire review I read claimed that its software selection was out-of-date relative to the competition. I also suspect that {Lin,Free}spire, being a relatively obscure distribution, will probably have more trouble with hardware support than, say, openSUSE.
Also, it’s nothing to do with being cheap, it’s about having a policy not to include free as in freedom software by default; that isn’t illegitimate, since noone at Ubuntu is forcing anyone else to do likewise; it’s also no less legitimate than a company or a user having a policy of not using spyware, shareware or PD software.
It’s funny, but these are the same things we’ve clamoured for in years. It’s nothing new!
provides drivers and codecs, and it love it for that reason.
Sabayon Linux rocks! provides drivers and codecs,
… not made in America. Therefore functional.
Shame about the boot time, though.
Yes please, tell Gentoo to not make big changes all the time, I spend so much time updating my Linux that I’m spending most of my time doing that now !
Is this the price for security that I have to pay ?
Woot? O_o
You are not supposed to keep updating constantly. Please tell me you are not doing “emerge -uDN world” every day.
Apart from GLSAs you shouldn’t have to install a lot unless _you_ are making major changes on your system. And that won’t happen unless you are doing things you shouldn’t be doing.
emerge –sync ; emerge -uvDN world
Yes
I don’t want to miss any openssl, openssh, apache … security update.
Do you know a reasonnable way to update the system keeping my box secure ?
Last change to the portage tool let me tenth big packages to recompile and I don’t succeed currently
I had others problems, with :
– gcc 4.1
– exploding kde to small packages
– some library that didn’t want to compile (libmpeg3 ?)
…etc…
actually, i’m fighting with those packages for too much days :
[ebuild U ] app-office/koffice-data-1.5.2 [1.4.2] USE=”arts -debug -xinerama” 0 kB
[ebuild U ] app-office/koffice-libs-1.5.2 [1.4.2] USE=”arts -debug -doc -xinerama” 0 kB
[ebuild U ] app-office/kivio-1.5.2 [1.4.2] USE=”arts -debug -xinerama” 0 kB
[ebuild R ] kde-base/kdemultimedia-arts-3.5.2 USE=”kdeenablefinal -debug -xinerama (-kdehiddenvisibility%)” 6,125 kB
[ebuild U ] app-office/koshell-1.5.2 [1.4.2] USE=”arts -debug -xinerama” 0 kB
[ebuild U ] app-office/kformula-1.5.2 [1.4.2] USE=”arts -debug -xinerama” 0 kB
[ebuild R ] app-crypt/qca-1.0-r2 USE=”(-ssl%*)” 29 kB
[ebuild R ] kde-base/kopete-3.5.2 USE=”arts kdeenablefinal ssl -debug -kdehiddenvisibility -sametime -xinerama (-xmms*)” 7,347 kB
[ebuild R ] kde-base/kig-3.5.2 USE=”arts kdeenablefinal kig-scripting* -debug -kdehiddenvisibility -xinerama” 29,169 kB
[ebuild R ] kde-base/kaddressbook-3.5.2-r1 USE=”arts gnokii* kdeenablefinal -debug -kdehiddenvisibility -xinerama” 12,585 kB
[ebuild N ] kde-base/kmail-3.5.2-r4 USE=”arts crypt kdeenablefinal -debug -kdehiddenvisibility -xinerama” 0 kB
[ebuild R ] kde-base/noatun-3.5.2 USE=”kdeenablefinal -debug -xinerama (-kdehiddenvisibility%)” 0 kB
[ebuild N ] kde-base/kicker-applets-3.5.2 USE=”arts -debug -kdeenablefinal -kdehiddenvisibility -xinerama (-xmms)” 1,601 kB
[ebuild R ] kde-base/artsplugin-audiofile-3.5.0 USE=”kdeenablefinal kdexdeltas -debug -xinerama (-kdehiddenvisibility%)” 5,390 kB
[ebuild R ] kde-base/kdemultimedia-kfile-plugins-3.5.2 USE=”arts kdeenablefinal theora vorbis -debug -xinerama (-kdehiddenvisibility%)” 0 kB
[ebuild R ] kde-base/krec-3.5.2 USE=”encode kdeenablefinal mp3 vorbis -debug -xinerama (-kdehiddenvisibility%)” 0 kB
[ebuild N ] kde-base/artsplugin-akode-3.5.2-r1 USE=”kdeenablefinal -debug -xinerama” 1 kB
[ebuild U ] app-office/kchart-1.5.2 [1.4.2] USE=”arts -debug -xinerama” 0 kB
[ebuild U ] app-office/kspread-1.5.2 [1.4.2-r1] USE=”arts -debug -xinerama” 0 kB
[ebuild U ] app-office/kpresenter-1.5.2 [1.4.2] USE=”arts -debug -xinerama (-kdexdeltas%*)” 0 kB
[ebuild N ] app-office/kplato-1.5.2 USE=”arts -debug -xinerama” 0 kB
[ebuild U ] app-office/karbon-1.5.2 [1.4.2] USE=”arts -debug -xinerama” 0 kB
[ebuild U ] app-office/krita-1.5.2-r1 [1.4.2] USE=”arts -debug -xinerama (-javascript%*)” 0 kB
[ebuild U ] app-office/kexi-1.5.2 [1.4.2] USE=”arts mysql -debug -postgres -xinerama (-kdexdeltas%*)” 0 kB
[ebuild U ] app-office/kword-1.5.2 [1.4.2-r6] USE=”arts -debug -xinerama” 0 kB
[ebuild U ] app-office/kugar-1.5.2 [1.4.2] USE=”arts -debug -xinerama (-kdexdeltas%*)” 0 kB
[ebuild U ] app-office/koffice-meta-1.5.2 [1.4.2] 0 kB
[ebuild U ] app-i18n/koffice-i18n-1.5.2 [1.4.2] USE=”arts -debug -xinerama” LINGUAS=”fr -af% -ar% -bg -br% -bs% -ca -cs -cy -da -de -el -en_GB -eo% -es -et -eu -fi -ga% -he% -hi% -hu -is% -it -ja% -lt% -mk% -ms% -nb -nl -nn -pl -pt -pt_BR -ro% -ru -se% -sk% -sl -sr -sr@Latn -sv -ta -tg -tr% -uk% -uz% -zh_CN -zh_TW%” 6,458 kB
[ebuild R ] media-video/mplayer-1.0_pre8 USE=”X aac aalib alsa arts bindist bl cdparanoia directfb dts dv dvb dvd dvdread encode esd fbcon ggi gif gtk i8x0 jack joystick jpeg libcaca live lzo mad mmx mmxext musepack nas openal opengl oss png real rtc samba sdl speex sse sse2 tga theora truetype unicode v4l v4l2 vorbis win32codecs x264 xanim xv xvid xvmc -3dfx -3dnow -3dnowext (-altivec) -bidi -cpudetection -custom-cflags -debug -dga -doc -ipv6 -lirc -livecd -matrox -nvidia -svga -xinerama (-xmms*)” LINGUAS=”fr -bg -cs -da -de -el -en -es -hu -ja -ko -mk -nl -no -pl -pt_BR -ro -ru -sk -tr -uk -zh_CN -zh_TW” 8,885 kB
[ebuild R ] media-sound/normalize-0.7.6-r2 USE=”audiofile mad nls (-xmms*)” 292 kB
[ebuild NS ] virtual/jre-1.4.2 0 kB
[ebuild N ] app-accessibility/gnopernicus-1.0.4 USE=”-brltty -debug -doc -ipv6″ 2,252 kB
in order to get a chance to compile, I’ve tried a while read pkgname ; do ; emerge -v =$pkgname ; done
Let me know if you have a good idea
Hmm..
About security fixes:
Subscribe to [email protected]
And use the GLSA-script (glsa-check – install gentoolkit)
See more here: http://www.gentoo.org/security/en/index.xml
About the packages, you posted. Subscribe to [email protected] and remember to post the actual error messages, and your make.conf (resides in /etc).
However, if you have done many deep emerges, you might be better off with a reinstallation.
And don’t feel bad about it.. Been there – done that :p
Thank you a lot !
“I have installed Ubuntu myself a few times, and it really is SO annoying to have to go through lots of extra steps to even get MP3 playback..They really should make it a lot easier to install those since most people install them anyway.”
See subject line. You can’t get much easier than that bud.
Being on 100+ replies page, no one will read this, but, kudos to site maintainers for scoring another million advertisement views by posting this flame-bate subject.
This is an awesome open-ended “news” post. It allows all the addicted-to-Windows-ways-of-doing-things ppl to blog about their horrid experiences of getting off the drug. Chi-ching!
+5 Funny (not to mention appropriate)
Interesting list no matter what the platform. Communications, connectivity, sharing, multimedia, mobility, surfing, GoogleWorld. That’s where the home PC is at right now to judge from this list.
Looked at in this way, I’m not sure any platform – Windows, Mac, whoever – covers all the bases or does it flawlessly. Realistically, there are probably only two Linux distros that can pull things up a level: SuSE and Ubuntu. They are big, influential and focused on the needs of ordinary users. Other distros are either a bit small, or aren’t so focused on the desktop needs of Joe Sixpack (Fedora, Debian), or for whatever reason aren’t very popular with F/OSS people (e.g. Linspire).
Even then there are plenty of legal problems to wade through and Linux is never going to be Windows. However, there will always be problems in the way, and sometimes they provide a convenient excuse, imho. Pressure from users, no matter how ill-informed they seem or reluctant to do things “the Linux way” in the eyes of ubergeeks and tech snobs, will bring about beneficial change. Beneficial, that is, in the sense of bringing the most capable platform to the widest audience: a universal operating system that does not come with preconditions, require unusual skills to use or cost money people don’t have.
So I guess it might be better to try some persuasion on SuSE and Ubuntu rather than on Linux generally. Where they lead, others will follow.
Edited 2006-10-25 16:56
With so many comments referring to Linux only becoming a success when any moron on the planet can use it, then what is the payment for that success? Will all of the developers suddenly be presented with a huge bonus check? Will they all receive backdated stock options? There is so much talk of the average Joe six-pack being too busy to work or learn. What about all of the people who contribute? They have lives and families too.
This is similar to the moochers at the office who never buy doughnuts, but are always the first to eat them.
If they could make a distro that’s less than one year old that prevents my fan from running constantly (or at least detects it) I’d be more than happy.
The software is free of charge and free of patents.
The source code is available.
It is maintained for us by thousands of volunteer developers (sure, a minority is being paid).
There are lots of free programs for the OS that are just as free.
When you have a problem, dozens of people on forums will help you.
Improvements of *n*x/FOSS are made very day.
And yet…
…we demand that MP3 support is out of the box, although we can rip our own CDs as OGG just as easily.
…we demand closed graphics drivers to be included for the wobbly window & 3D cube fun, because we are jealous of the Mac OS X GUI.
…we demand MM Flash, Java, Adobe PDF stuff, etc. to work out of the box, and if in any way possible, free of charge.
Otherwise we’ll complain about Linux never getting “ready”.
Frankly, I think we are just spoilt.
No, we are not spoiled. It is what the modern market demands. People NEED these applications/libs as they have them on other OSes or they are used to.
Saying that someone shout ditch mp3 just because ogg is there, is plain stupid. Not because mp3 is better, but because it is NEEDED.
No, we are not spoiled. It is what the modern market demands. People NEED these applications/libs as they have them on other OSes or they are used to.
People “NEED” water, clothes, food, and oxygen.
Saying that someone shout ditch mp3 just because ogg is there, is plain stupid. Not because mp3 is better, but because it is NEEDED.
Where did I say people shouldn’t install that?
Where did I say people should ditch MP3?
All I said is, we have a lot of demands, but if we’re dealing with open source, we’re generally not prepared to either pay for it, or to invest just a little time and energy in it.
You may call that a “stupid” thought, well I wonder, for instance, how many people demanding that MP3 is supported out of the box, use that format for anything other than playing music that was illegally up-/downloaded in the first place.
Quite frankly, I have all the multimedia stuff installed and I use it too, but what gives me the right to complain that I had to install it myself? It’s a fact most people aren’t willing to pay for *n*x/OSS even a fraction of what is paid for MSW or OS X. Which, I suppose, shows my comment is not that “stupid”.
Then, the fact that the little survey shows that to a rather large majority, nVidia/ATi graphics support is a major priority, shows that people care a lot about wobbly windows and 3D cubes.
Of course they do, but can you call that a need?
I was talking about MARKET needs, not personal needs. And yes, in market needs, the people want wobbly windows. You completely underestimate what people want today from their computers.
I was talking about MARKET needs, not personal needs.
I think it only looks like the market would need it, because if there were actually a market for such solutions, those who sell them, e.g. Linspire, would have a huge portion of said market.
Since the do not have a huge portion of the Linux market, this market segement you refer to is either very tiny or very masochistic by not buying those products that fullfill their need but rather buying products that don’t and suffer
Heh… Some of the more geekier power users may want that, but Average Joe do not about wobbly windows, nor does he care.
He just wants to write emails, browsing sites (requires quite a bit incl. flash support and java and what not), and writing documents.
The really geeky users wants to be free from wobbly windows. Left is an unimportant group wanting wobbly windows, because the OS companies cannot figure out to compete on other variables than wobbly windows.
“the people want wobbly windows”
When In The Course Of Human Events…
I have a dream, that one day,
on the red hills of Georgia…
(I guess the times, they are a-changin’
)
Windows cannot play mp3 out of the box. My gentoo installation however could from the very beginning. But that was due to my USE flags.
Windows cannot play DVD out of the box. My gentoo installation however could from the very beginning. Yet again due to USE flag settings.
The only thing that makes Windows so easy in the eyes of Windows users is the fact that Windows is pre-installed and pre-configured when you buy a Windows PC.
You should not compare such pre-configured PCs with a Linux distribution like that.
Compare stock Windows installation with stock Linux installation, and you’ll see most Linux distributions are way ahead of Windows (and much bigger in terms of used GB’s on your harddrive).
You are really good at comparing apples with oranges.
> Windows cannot play mp3 out of the box
Yes it can, do your homework.
> My gentoo installation however could from the very beginning. Yet again due to USE flag settings.
It was NOT out of the box if you had to DO SOMETHING to get it, was it?
> Compare stock Windows installation with stock Linux
> installation, and you’ll see most Linux distributions
> are way ahead of Windows (and much bigger in terms of
> used GB’s on your harddrive).
I’d say that fewer GB’s is better. Also, you should know that talking about a stock version of XP is not that relevant since almost no one uses a stock version. They buy it installed and pre-configured because that’s what they want.
> You are really good at comparing apples with oranges.
What point is there to compare if the two things you compare are completely equal?
Hey, nobody says two apples are equal
Anyway, what’s the point of comparing a pre-configured Windows system with a barebone FLOSS system?
Eugenia should compare a preconfigured FLOSS system with a preconfigured Windows system, or at least quit whining and merely state the elements she thinks are important.
I think there should be a simple and easy way to install non-free software, but whining about it, isn’t the way to go.
I agree that fewer GB’s are better. But compare a fullyfledged XP (or in my case Win2K3) system with a fullyfledged Linux system, and you’ll see both are way too bloated.
BTW. Most users buy PC’s with Windows preconfigured – mostly because they can’t get anything else, and because they don’t know anything else. Since most of them know nothing at all, they don’t know what they want. They just buy what they can get. And you cannot blame them for that (or at least it would be unfair).
BTW: You can do something and still have it out of the box. When I’ve finished installing Win2K3 it doesn’t support MP3 (no codecs are installed, though the W(i)MP can download such codecs temporarily). When Gentoo-installation is done, it has mp3 playback. I have to tell it to do so, but I also have to prepare partitions for Windows. Simple preconfiguring. Gentoo is just much easier to preconfigure, while Windows have to be after-configured, unless you buy a PC with everything and sundry installed.
> Windows cannot play mp3 out of the box
“Yes it can, do your homework.”
http://www.google.com.au/search?q=%22windows+XP%22+mp3&star…
It would appear that “out of the Windows box” Windows can play but not encode mp3s.
You need an additional plugin to encode mp3s, according to Microsoft themselves.
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/player/plugins.aspx
Windows includes no support for ogg, out of the box or even via a plugin from Microsoft:
http://www.google.com.au/search?hs=qiW&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=o…
In fact, Microsoft’s default dialog box implies that Windows can’t support ogg:
http://windowsxp.mvps.org/ogg.htm
… but you can get it from elsewhere, so Windows lies. It is just that you can’t get such support from Microsoft.
All up, out of the box, Windows media support is far inferior to a typical Linux installation, out of the box.
Edited 2006-10-25 23:09
My gentoo installation however could from the very
beginning. Yet again due to USE flag settings.
It was NOT out of the box if you had to DO SOMETHING to get it, was it?
It’s not out of the box if there is no box either now is it?
See “circumvention device”.For actual enforcement in the US against developers outside US, see the Skylarov case: http://www.eff.org/IP/DMCA/US_v_Elcomsoft/us_v_elcomsoft_faq.html#I…
“Is it illegal under the DMCA’s anti-circumvention provisions for people in the US to use the software Dmitry Sklyarov allegedly wrote and ElcomSoft allegedly distributed?
The DMCA’s anti-circumvention provisions don’t prohibit the mere possession or use of a section 1201(b)(1) circumvention technology (copy controls), so it’s legal to use AEBPR in a non-infringing way. Paradoxically, although it is legal for people to bypass these controls and exercise fair use rights, the provision of them is illegal under Section 1201.”
The keyword here is “provision”. If you put circumvention devices up for download, you can end up in jail, like Sklyarov, when you enter the US. Sounds crazy, but that’s how international law enforcement works when you step onto someone’s proprietary technology revenue stream.
In addition, DVDs use MPEG2. If you want a license, head over to the MPEG LA site at: http://www.mpegla.com/m2/m2-agreement.cfm
“(1) For MPEG-2 decoding products in hardware or software (such as those found in set-top boxes, DVD players and computers equipped with MPEG-2 decode units), the royalty is US $2.50 from January 1, 2002 and $4.00/unit before January 1, 2002. (Sections 2.2 and 3.1.1).”
If you do business in the US, their laws matter. If you don’t, good on ya, but most commercial Linux distributions sell their products on the US market, and have to take the laws there into account.
//The keyword here is “provision”. If you put circumvention devices up for download, you can end up in jail, like Sklyarov, when you enter the US. Sounds crazy, but that’s how international law enforcement works when you step onto someone’s proprietary technology revenue stream.//
The problem with this argument is that CSS is not a copy protection system. It is a distribution-control mechanism.
I can make a bitwise copy of a DVD including all of the CSS bits, and the copied DVD will still play.
The MPA tried to get a conviction against one of the authors of DeCSS based on a DMCA-like arguement, and they failed.
Therefore, libdvdcss and DeCSS are not circumvention devices. The DMCA does not apply.
BTW, look up the DMCA case in the US about printer ink cartridges, I think it was a Lexmark case. Lexmark tried to stop a circumvention of their distribution control mechanism of printer ink cartridges, and they failed also.
Edited 2006-10-25 23:48
To quote from the case history in
US Second Circuit Court of Appeals Decision
affirming District Court ruling against defendants, in Universal v. Reimerdes (Nov. 28, 2001)
” The Plaintiffs then sought a permanent injunction barring the Defendants from both posting DeCSS and linking to sites containing DeCSS. After a trial on the merits, the Court issued a comprehensive opinion, Universal I, and granted a permanent injunction, Universal II.
The Court explained that the Defendants’ posting of DeCSS on their web site clearly falls within section 1201(a)(2)(A) of the DMCA, rejecting as spurious their claim that CSS is not a technolog ical measure that “effectively controls access to a work” because it was so easily penetrated by Johansen, Universal I, 111 F. Supp. 2d at 318, and as irrelevant their contention that DeCSS was designed to create a Linux platform DVD player, id. at 319. The Court also held that the Defendants cannot avail themselves of any of the DMCA’s exceptions, id. at 319 22, and that the alleged importance of DeCSS to certain fair uses of encrypted copyrighted material was immaterial to their statutory liability, id. at 322 24. The Court went on to hold that when the Defendants “proclaimed on their own site that DeCSS could be had by clicking on the hyperlinks” on their site, they were trafficking in DeCSS, and therefore liable for their linking as well as their posting. Id. at 325.”
Look, I know where you’re coming from, and I agree that CSS is, from a crypto standpoint, crap. But, the ‘US hackers vs. movie industry’ lawsuit game has been already played through back from 1999 to 2001, and the good guys lost so bad, they they didn’t want to take it up to the supreme court.
Yes, I’m aware that DMCA does not get upheld for every travesty, but in this particular case, concerning DVD playback, it worked just like the movie industry wanted it to work.
That’s not the fault of the distros.
WTF??
The court has clearly made an error.
CSS is not a copy prevention measure. I can copy a DVD with CSS so-called “protection” bit-for-bit onto a new DVD blank, and the copy will play exactly as the original. CSS has had absolutely no effect on my ability to make a copy.
How can CSS be a “copy protection measure” when it does precisely nothing to prevent copying?
Clearly the court wouldn’t know tech if it bit them on the … rear.
Sigh!!
Americans are sooooooo stoopid sometimes.
PS: why is there no take-down notice for this then?
http://www.videolan.org/pub/videolan/libdvdcss/1.2.9/libdvdcss-1.2….
http://downloads.videolan.org/pub/videolan/libdvdcss/
http://developers.videolan.org/libdvdcss/index.html
Perhaps this may be a reason:
“libdvdcss
libdvdcss is a simple library designed for accessing DVDs like a block device without having to bother about the decryption. “
Is it because libdvdcss doesn’t actually circumvent the alleged “protection” at all?
“That’s not the fault of the distros.”
Actually, AFAIK, all Linux DVD players use libdvdcss, not DeCSS. DeCSS was the only one that DVDCCA/MPA went after.
Edited 2006-10-26 11:17
//If you do business in the US, their laws matter. If you don’t, good on ya, but most commercial Linux distributions sell their products on the US market, and have to take the laws there into account.//
Agreed.
However, libdvdcss and DeCSS do not contravene any laws at all. Even draconian US laws.
The MPA tried to legally “go after” the author of DeCSS, and they failed. DeCSS is not a circumvention device.
The author of DeCSS was in Norway. The DMCA was not involved in the trial.
//The author of DeCSS was in Norway. The DMCA was not involved in the trial.//
OK then, have it your way.
I was prepared to say that there had been exactly one (1) legal attempt against DeCSS using provisions similar to the DMCA, and zero successes.
But if you claimed the DMCA was not involved, then that means the total is exactly zero (0) legal attempts agaisnt DeCSS and/or libdvdcss, and zero successes.
Exactly how you might think that this history might support a notion that DeCSS and libdvdcss are illegal is beyond me.
Edited 2006-10-26 02:36
Try any of these following Linux distributions with multimedia support out of the box:
http://www.dynebolic.org/
http://wolvix.org/
http://www.sabayonlinux.org/
http://www.zenwalk.org/
http://www.freespire.org/
http://kateos.org/
http://kororaa.org/
http://www.mandriva.com/en/community/mandrivaone
This is the “non-free” (as in speech) version of mandriva… it is “free” (as in beer) and now available with ATI and NVidia support and mp3 support out of the box… review here:
http://lunapark6.com/?p=2264
Now really Eugenia, why the convenient referencing “Mandrake” instead of Mandriva in the top 5? Mandrake, Conectiva and Lycoris have been merged for over a year now.
Edited 2006-10-26 02:51