“Flameeyes (a Gentoo/FreeBSD developer) recently came up with some serious problems among the various *BSD projects who use BSD-4 licensed code (which is all of them). Even other projects like Open Darwin may be affected. The saga started when he discovered the license problems with libkvm and start-stop-daemon. “libkvm is a userspace interface to FreeBSD kernel, and it’s licensed under the original BSD license, BSD-4 if you want, the one with the nasty advertising clause.” start-stop-daemon links to libkvm, but it’s licensed under the GPL which is incompatible with the advertising clause. The good news is that the University of California/Berkley has given people permission to drop the advertising clause. The bad news is that libkvm has code from many other sources and each of them needs to give their permission for the license to be changed. At the moment, development on the Gentoo/FreeBSD is on hold and the downloads have been removed from the Gentoo mirrors.”
Aren’t they looking at this a bit bass-ackwards. stop-start-daemon was written after libkvm and used code from libkvm. It would seem the authors of stop-start-daemon should have paid attention to what the license was on the code they borrowed and chose to properly respect it, not turn around and expect the authors of libkvm to relicense because they don’t like the ad clause.
I was thinking that GPL had gotten over the BSD license issue since god-knows-when, and never thought there was an aftermath…
Anyway, this goes to show how an infinitely small item can cause general mayhem. And that the continual recreation of licenses mildly different from each other is Bad(TM).
However, it won’t hurt the main community. Few people use Gentoo/FreeBSD. Rather, Apple and MS may be worse hit — both used much of BSD code in their own system, and exactly how many copyright violations they have made… (I’ve personally never seen any Apple or MS ad with the clause…)
And some people can still throw chairs around and warn that Linux potentially violate patents. Seems like they aren’t so legal after all…
It’s not really something very small.
In licensing, every tiny clause always (potentially) counts. It keeps people off the streets.
Edited 2007-01-08 18:57
“However, it won’t hurt the main community. Few people use Gentoo/FreeBSD. Rather, Apple and MS may be worse hit — both used much of BSD code in their own system, and exactly how many copyright violations they have made… (I’ve personally never seen any Apple or MS ad with the clause…) “
There is no ad required to show the clause, but that the clause be in the source code. The GPL strictly forbids the clause from being used.
This is exactly the type of confusion the Stallman will introduce when he tries to block Novell with the GLP v3 clauses. These licenses are becoming more restrictive they are becoming more of a pain.
I have several customers who like Linux and enjoy the level of customization however say that the license disputes are making them consider either OS X or windows.
The license thing is becoming a real problem and put customers potentially at risk such as the on hold issue of projects.
“I have several customers who like Linux and enjoy the level of customization however say that the license disputes are making them consider either OS X or windows. ”
Absolutely…and I suspect strongly that they get it from you. Its not like every program on OSX/Windows does not contain some serious restrictions that those EULA’s http://www.eff.org/wp/eula.php, by its very nature is more of a minefield for the user.
real smart comment show maturity. For the record it does not come from me and I actually prefer Linux and my entire organization runs SLES and Suse 10. I also contribute to numerous projects and support Linux, I do however recommend the benefits of OS X and recommend it over MS to keep UNIX in the organization as oppose to Windows but you know what we have become a community of attackers so I expect Cyclops not to be able to disagree reasonably.
In any case I was pointing out that the customers are paying close attention to the license issues and expect vendors to bare the burden of license issues such as Novell, Apple, and MS.
=O that’s a shock!
…is the problem, again and again. No other oss license is so restrictive and incompatible with other licenses. The FSF and GPL become more and more annoying. If GPL v3 makes things worse (the current version in discussion really is), I hope we finally see more and more developers who choose a different oss license. Not even the FSF lawyers seem to fully understand the GPL, even v2.
“””…is the problem, again and again.”””
Indeed, GPL is causing an increasing number of problems within the FOSS community itself. To make matters worse, as the FSF thinks it can get away with it, it tightens its grip. Even GPLv2 projects are vulnerable to the viral nature of the GPLv3 (draft).
I hate to admit it. But perhaps Balmer was right, and GPL really *is* a cancer.
Edited 2007-01-08 18:59
I’m sorry to burst your bubble, but the problem isn’t caused by the GPL, but by an old and outdated BSD license with an advertising clause that everyone today agrees was a bad idea to begin with.
Nice try at spreading FUD though.
I’m sorry to burst your bubble, but the problem isn’t caused by the GPL,
It appears the GPL is incompatible with the old BSD license– not the other way around. Not placing the “blame”, just making an observation.
but by an old and outdated BSD license with an advertising clause that everyone today agrees was a bad idea to begin with.
Everyone? NetBSD still uses the clause.
It appears the GPL is incompatible with the old BSD license– not the other way around.
Yes Thom. Because the software under the GPL is in this cased linked against other software (and this software is under the old BSD license). If it were the other way around, we’d still have the same situation, only with reversed roles.
To sum it up, this observation is absolutely meaningless, unless if you want to spread FUD, as some people here, not you, tried to.
Everyone? NetBSD still uses the clause.
They do? I wasn’t aware of that. Thanks for pointing it out.
This doesn’t really change my point though, as now nearly everyone, with the notable exception of some NetBSD devs obviously, agrees with the advertising clause being a bad idea.
Yes Thom. Because the software under the GPL is in this cased linked against other software (and this software is under the old BSD license). If it were the other way around, we’d still have the same situation, only with reversed roles.
Thom’s observation is not meaningless IMO. Even the 4-clause BSD license is compatible with most licenses (a broad range of opensource licenses to proprietary software), while there barely exists a license that is compatible with the GPL. The GPL embodies a philosophy of freedom, you can be for or against that, but it causes all kinds of licensing backlash. (Still, it is perfectly ok to do that, it’s the right of the copyright holders of software how they want to license it.)
This doesn’t really change my point though, as now nearly everyone, with the notable exception of some NetBSD devs obviously, agrees with the advertising clause being a bad idea.
“Some NetBSD devs” is downplaying the meaning of the 4-clause BSD license. The NetBSD license is the official license for code donated to The NetBSD Foundation, and the foundation has:
$ grep “ENTITY” developers.ent | wc -l
324
developers, and many contributors who do not have commit bits. That’s a significant developer body in the world of opensource operating systems.
with an advertising clause that everyone today agrees was a bad idea to begin with.
Well, not everybody
. And if you are giving software away to the net with a clause that says
3. All advertising materials mentioning features or use of this software must display the following acknowledgement: <copyright holder>
seems very reasonable to me, considering that the license has virtually no other strings attached (besides including the license text).
Edited 2007-01-08 19:54
Whether or not you or anyone else believes the ad clause is a bad idea (i don’t particularly like it myself), the devs who developed start-stop-daemon still have to respect and honor the license on the code they borrowed. End of story.
Whether or not you or anyone else believes the ad clause is a bad idea (i don’t particularly like it myself), the devs who developed start-stop-daemon still have to respect and honor the license on the code they borrowed. End of story.
Did I or anyone else suggest in any way otherwise?
@Thom:
NetBSD uses the modified BSD License with one addition. The advertising clause requirement was removed by the Regents of the University of California.
“Neither the name of the University nor the names of its contributors may be used to endorse or promote products derived from this software without specific prior written permission.”
Source: http://www.netbsd.org/Goals/redistribution.html
The default NetBSD license is the original BSD license WITH the clause. Read the page you linked to:
“The NetBSD Foundation’s (TNF) license is a “4 clause” Berkeley-style license, which is used for all code contributed to TNF. If you write code and assign the copyright to TNF, this is the license that will be used.”
Well, in the license to be placed in all software I see an advertising clause. So actually, I’m thinking Thom might be right.
“I’m sorry to burst your bubble, but the problem isn’t caused by the GPL, but by an old and outdated BSD license with an advertising clause that everyone today agrees was a bad idea to begin with.
Nice try at spreading FUD though.”
You are totally right. BSDs must turn to GPL, otherwise I will continue to feel on BSDs like working on Windows. I cannot understand the BSD licence. For example MS finds a bug in the USB stack it borrowed and fixes it. But it never returns the bugfix back. So MS has an advantage over FreeBSD. So FreeBSDians seem to be
1. Totally egoists believing they do not introduce bugs
2. Totally idiots believing that they have all the manpower to solve their problems.
3. Totally dangerous by allowing bugs in their software to reach their users when they have an opportunity to solve it and for all.
4. Totally self-contradictory by advertising Open Source and taking precautions to impede it.
5. Totally liars by taking all our work and donating to big companies.
And please don’t use the ridiculous argument that the developers know about BSD licence, it is morality in question here and if you are not moral to admit it,
there is always fdisk. !period!
“””And please don’t use the ridiculous argument that the developers know about BSD licence, it is morality in question here and if you are not moral to admit it,
there is always fdisk. !period!”””
Excuse me for asking this… but are you even sane?
Nice flame. You must be quite self-suffisent to impose your views on morality on others, especially when these BSD folks must have made far more contributions to the community that you ever did. Although I don’t believe the BSD licence is ideal, I would certainly not question their choice. Everybody can benefit, including users of the GPL; if they don’t mind commercial exploitation, then it’s cool. I don’t really understand why some people believe companies are inherently evil when they probably work for one, unless they are self-employed or a civil servant…
You mention that Microsoft borrowed the USB stack from FreeBSD. Show me.
As for the Gentoo/FreeBSD issue, I guess that shit happens. Perhaps it would be worthwhile to rewrite the affected utility. That said, re-read the story — it looks like they have found a solution to continue development.
You are totally right. BSDs must turn to GPL, otherwise I will continue to feel on BSDs like working on Windows. I cannot understand the BSD licence. For example MS finds a bug in the USB stack it borrowed and fixes it. But it never returns the bugfix back. So MS has an advantage over FreeBSD.
I know that this is probably a troll, but it is a common stream of thought. I would like to point out that it misses a huge advantage of the BSD license: it creates standardized implementations. Basically everyone can integrate BSD code without cost and giving back to the community. This is such a low barrier that software vendors will often do this.
A good example is the TCP/IP stack of BSD and its decendants. Practically everybody uses it, or copied it (as in its design). Now, suppose that UCB had used a more restrictive license, many vendors, from the meriad of UNIX vendors that have existed over time, Microsoft, vendors of systems for embedded devices, etc. would probably have done their own implementation, with their own extensions and incompatibilities, leaving a huge “protocol hell”.
The BSD license and comparable licenses are great for infrastructural code. Think TCP/IP stack, FFS/UFS, X11, IPsec, USB stack, etc. (in other words, most of the operating system) So, it makes a lot of sense to implement new protocols and technologies under the BSD license if you want to make them standardized.
(I think it’s great for other software too, but that’s just my humble personal opinion.)
I hate to admit it. But perhaps Balmer was right, and GPL really *is* a cancer.
The GPL is a tool and like all tools needs to be used properly to be effective.
Despite it’s shortcomings, GPL v2 has proven to be the most popular and, arguably, the most effective license for encouraging reciprocal development for OSS projects.
Yes, if people taint GPL projects with non-compatible code, there will be a problem but that is by design. It’s up to developers to understand the licensing.
As for v3, it is incompatible with v2 by design so simply becomes a new licensing alternative. It’s impact on current v2 projects will be minimal to non-existent; most of the core projects that would have the ability to impact that type of paradigm shift in licensing will either stay v2 (ie. the kernel) or will adopt v3 but still retain LGPL licensing (ie. the GNU projects) which minimizes the “viral” nature of a transition. So gcc switching to v3 doesn’t force developers using gcc to produce v3 apps, and libc switching to v3 doesn’t restrict it’s useage to v3 apps, for instance. Developers will simply select v2 or v3 based on their objectives, much as they choose between GPL and BSD or alternatives today.
But dismissing the GPL because of it’s intentional incompatibility with less restrictive licenses is a bit of an overreaction when it has proven so successful despite that. That restrictiveness is likely part of the attraction for the majority of devs that select it.
But at least Richard Stallman doesn’t throw chairs…but then again.
“””But at least Richard Stallman doesn’t throw chairs…but then again. :-)”””
If the greater community were somehow able to thwart Richard’s ramrodding-through of his GPLv3, I suspect we’d see some Olympic Class chair throwing on his part.
Hey, I’d buy a ticket to watch.
“No other oss license is so restrictive and incompatible with other licenses”.
restrictive for whom.
“GPL v3 makes things worse” GPL3 makes my life *less* *restrictive* that the point or have you not been keeping up. Seriously you should read about the license.
“Not even the FSF lawyers seem to fully understand the GPL, even v2.”
I’m absolutely certain underlying premise to GPL is really simple…the only debate *ever* is how to get around it.
Edited 2007-01-08 19:33
“restrictive for whom.”
Everybody, developers and users.
“GPL3 makes my life *less* *restrictive* that the point or have you not been keeping up. Seriously you should read about the license.”
The GPL v3 doesn’t give me the right to decide whether I want use DRM software or not. How is this not a ristriction? Gimme a break…
”
The GPL v3 doesn’t give me the right to decide whether I want use DRM software or not. How is this not a ristriction? Gimme a break…
”
WRONG it restricts use on DRM’d hardware like Tivo and (probably Sveasoft’s firmware for routers), that stops you from running modifications on it with the source they give. Look up “Tivoization”. It has nothing to do with software DRM.
And yes GPL3 does stop the deal with Novell– isn’t that a good thing for the people who chose to license under it? The deal specifically leaves commercial vendors out of their patent blanket and open for suits.
“…is the problem, again and again. ”
Perhaps but that has NOTHING to do with this news item. I’m no fan of the GPL either but I also dont want to see every damn thread take a turn for the worse into a license flamewar.
It’s important to say that Gentoo/FreeBSD isn’t Gentoo AND FreeBSD. It’s neither one nor the other, it’s a subproject of the Gentoo Foundation that combines best of both worlds, and they call it the “Gentoo/FreeBSD” project: http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/gentoo-alt/bsd/fbsd/
I am thinking about using PC-BSD & it is FreeBSD at the core. Why don’t the dimwits just take out the software causing the probs.?
Edited 2007-01-08 18:54
“Why don’t the dimwits just take out the software causing the probs.?”
Because the software in question is integral to the functioning of the OS. If you take out the spark plugs in your engine, the motor won’t run dimwit.
Actually, this issue could potentially impact every BSD flavour out-there.
“All of the *BSD-derived projects took some way or another code licensed 4-BSD that is not under copyright of UCB, that would then require them to provide the acknowledgements on all the “advertising material”, whatever that is. And I’m pretty sure most of the *BSD projects have something that can be considered advertisement even to the stricter of the meaning.”
Edited 2007-01-08 19:12
Whats the point of such mixture? Both work independently very well.
Hold the page.
As one who is interested in licensing issues this is becoming an excuse for GPL3 and FSF bashing without real substance.
when “GPL really *is* a cancer.” gets the points on the page you know that its not about the license.
this gpl bitching is getting old, its completely moronic.
people choose a license, for THEIR work, they made it, they choose, and people must in turn comply.
NOBODY forces people to use gpl’ed work, be it version 2 or 3.
when will people stop bitch that they CANT take stuff licensed under a given license, and not comply? its insane.
Nice rant, but I don’t think you quite understand. In this case it was the authors of stop-start-daemon who used code from a 4-BSD licensed library and did not comply with the license.
“””In this case it was the authors of stop-start-daemon who used code from a 4-BSD licensed library and did not comply with the license.”””
Indeed. It is a case of GPL authors being so used to sucking code from other OSS projects without having to give anything back that they did not even bother to check to see if they were stepping upon other people’s toes.
Edited 2007-01-08 21:05
“Indeed. It is a case of GPL authors being so used to sucking code from other OSS projects without having to give anything back”
80% of OS projects use GPL Licence clearly GPL are not giving anything back.
Even with BSD its about sharing…Have a look for a company that uses BSD code and hasn’t given it back, and perhaps vent your bile at them.
start-stop-daemon LINKS libkvm, nobody “used code” from the library
Do you understand what linking is?
i dont think you quite understand, i was commenting on those “oohhh noooeesss gpl viral death gplv3 sucks blablablabla” people, which are absolutely free to not use gpled stuff.
and as for this immediate issue, yes, someone overlooked the license for some software, and as a result cant distribute as it would violate the license, HOWEVER, seeing as this is a simple(well) mistake, and no one is deliberately trying to steal anyones work, they are naturally going to stop doing anything against the license of libkvm.
I understand it was a simple mistake. I still say there is no excuse whatsoever for it, but it was a mistake. I mean the damn BSD license is less than a page long and can be read in under 30 seconds. It almost definately took these devs longer to read the documentation on libkvm’s functions than it would have to read the license end to end.
All that aside, what gets me is that the start-stop-daemon developers’ use of the GPL is what caused the conflict. At no point did these guys consider not using the GPL where is doesn’t fit or writing their own code to fill in for the functions used from libkvm. Nope their initial response was to try and get libkvm relicensed because they’re arrogant enough to believe their license superceeds all.
Because UC Berkeley changed the licensing on all 4-clause BSD licensed files with their copyright some time ago (see /COPYRIGHT on any FreeBSD machine), the clause 3 that worried the author of the article was never relevant, though it was still included in the file headers by accident.
As a result of this silliness, this has now (with the exception of the powerpc module, which isn’t used in Gentoo/FreeBSD anyway) been corrected: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/src/lib/libkvm/
This is not now a problem, was never a problem, and if the author of the article had done a little more research (or work: it would have been trivial to rewrite start-stop-daemon), it would never have been one.
Edit:
Reading the source to start-stop-daemon (http://sources.gentoo.org/viewcvs.py/gentoo-src/rc-scripts/src/star…),
it isn’t even GPL, the software is released under the public domain, which is compatible with any license. Is the article some weird troll?
Edited 2007-01-08 20:40
1. UC Berkeley can do as they wish. libkvm is not copyrighted to UCB. It’s authors willingly chose the 4-BSD license for their own reasons and as of yet have not given the waivers that UCB did.
2. The stop-start-daemon.c you linked to isn’t the one in question. The one you linked to is 2 years old and the daemon has been rewritten under the GPL since then.
Edited 2007-01-08 20:59
Read the files. It’s a Berkeley copyright:
Copyright (c) 1989, 1992, 1993
* The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved.
This is true on all but two files (kvm_powerpc.c and kvm_arm.c). In the case of kvm_arm, they have contacted the author and removed the advertising clause. The only tainted file is thus kvm_powerpc.c, which isn’t used in Gentoo anyway.
As for (2), I wasn’t aware that there were multiple versions. Thanks for the correction.
’nuff said
http://www.osnews.com/permalink.php?news_id=16840&comment_id=197229
WOW now why would someone who makes pro Vista comments and anti-everything else like the BSD from the quote above get involved in a discussion like this…and make a statement like that.
Because BSD is a license not FreeBSD for your kind information:)
http://www.osnews.com/permalink.php?news_id=16636&comment_id=188439
Your colours are quite clear. Why when someone is…so passionate about Microsoft makes posts in an Open source License debate I must say I find it a little questionable.
Please state your reasons, I’m very interested.
Edited 2007-01-08 23:30
The reason is software ecosystem.
1. Universities do research and release code under BSD style license.
2. Many of these projects are very good and picked up by companies to commercialize them.
3. These companies (in turn software engineers in thse companies) makes money and make software engineering a lucrative discipline for students.
4. The companies donate some of the money back to universities.
5. Go to step 1.
This is the ecosystem promoted by BSD. GPL breaks that. If you ever read statistics, students are losing interest in computer science and once they see that it is not financial a good field to support their family, you will see even less people in this field.
That is why i like BSD and not Linux.
The all combined GPL based products have earned less money than even a handful of non-GPL products.
In a country like USA where a doctor charge 300$ for 30 minutes appointment, you need money to live a good life and GPL is not making software as an interesting field to make that kind of money.
I hope this explains well to you now.
“In a country like USA where a doctor charge 300$ for 30 minutes appointment, you need money to live a good life and GPL is not making software as an interesting field to make that kind of money.”
Here we go again… *sigh*
Seriously, I don’t know how often you visit the doctor but I’ve read this a couple of times too often.
I’m not a pro-GPL guy but this sort of pseudo argument makes me sick.
I know you didn’t say that but it sounds like:
Oh, no! I got children and a wife, I cannot develop GPL software or we’d all starve.
I developed GPL software so I had no money to go and see a doctor and died of cancer! You see, GPL _is_ cancer!
You’ve never heard of people working for companies on GPL software?
Or people coding in their free time just for the fun of it?
Seriously, get a life!
Count all the companies and tell me the number of employees in a GPL based software companies and non-GPL based.
I think you got the answer.
I don’t know if you live in US or not but even if you don’t go to doctor, you still have to take medical insurance because without it, if an emergency comes up, you are screwed. Medical bill range many times upto 50000$ or more.
The typical good medical insurance cost around 1000$ a month for family still for stuff like dental i pay around 100$ per month out of pocket.
Now think of housing in US, you pay around 3000$ per month for a 3 bedroom house.
Once you start looking at reality, you will get the picture.
I am not anti OSS, i don’t like GPL. I think GPL prohibits innovation and prevents commercialization of software in a very captialist world.
So unless you change the world from capitalist to something where everyone gets equal share of pie, i don’t think i will ever support GPL.
Btw RandomGuy there is no need to do personal attack just because you disagree:) So take a chill pill.
Edited 2007-01-09 01:10
“Count all the companies and tell me the number of employees in a GPL based software companies and non-GPL based.
I think you got the answer.”
Hmm, sort of. I mean, I know what you’re trying to tell me.
If you have any numbers and something to back them up, feel free to post them
I’d especially like to know how the ratio GPL/BSD based companies is.
Anyway, what I wanted to say was not that working on GPL based software is an easy way to world domination, I just wanted to prove that you _can_ make hard cold cash, working on GPL software. It’s not impossible.
Considering that many companies somehow get into GPL stuff (Sun, Trolltech) it seems to be getting easier, too. Working on some major GPL-project might also prove quite useful if you want to get a job at a regular IT-company.
I won’t comment on the costs of living in the US since
a) I’m from Germany and
b) this is unrelated to what I’m talking about.
I’m not saying that you need no money.
I was just tired of the “I need to pay the doctor”-argument since it always comes up along with “all GPL developers live in their parent’s basements” and the like.
I’d like people to be at least a little bit creative in spreading misconceptions.
If this is not what you intend to do please don’t take any offence, it’s just what it looked like. Especially considering I have seen the very same wording over and over again.
“I am not anti OSS, i don’t like GPL. I think GPL prohibits innovation and prevents commercialization of software in a very captialist world.”
I beg to differ.
The GPL made a whole new range of cooperation of different companies possible by making sure everybody had to contribute back and could not just leak code.
Let’s not just talk about commercial interests but also about the many open source projects that enjoyed growth and success and did a lot of innovation, all under the GPL. I’m not sure this is just coincidence. But to discuss this in detail would go beyond the scope of this post.
You are, however, right in that the GPL prevents some forms of commercialization while encouraging others.
Which are better is left to personal judgement.
“So unless you change the world from capitalist to something where everyone gets equal share of pie, i don’t think i will ever support GPL.”
Hey, slow down! I like capitalism just fine
Actually, I strongly dislike all sorts of communism.
However, GPL!=communism
There are companies making money of GPL software, mostly by selling support.
They work right here and right now.
“Btw RandomGuy there is no need to do personal attack just because you disagree:) So take a chill pill.”
Personal attacks were not what I had in mind.
It just seems to me that you drank _way_ too much anti-GPL koolaid – actually it looks more like you took a dive in it
Maybe I got you wrong but you seem to be saying:
#GPL==communism
#GPL==cancer
Which seems to be a rather lame copy of MS-FUD.
I hate to use the word “FUD” but it’s just that.
And to make 100% sure everybody got it:
a) I don’t want to attack you, as a person.
b) I’m not a communist.
c) I do think you drank way too much MS-koolaid.
RandomGuy – Can you define a ecosystem in which software industry will grow more under the shadow of GPL, something similar to what i described for BSD?
Can you define a commercial model which would re-cultivate the interest of people in software industry for lucrative career if let us say 90% market was GPL based?
If you can explain me such an ecosystem and convince me that GPL will increase the growth of software and demand for software engineers, i would agree that GPL is good for us. If not, then you prove me right, i.e. GPL is bad for long term health of software industry.
Edited 2007-01-09 03:17
“Can you define a ecosystem in which software industry will grow more under the shadow of GPL, something similar to what i described for BSD?”
First of all, thanks, CrazyDude0. We got to a reasonable level of discussion now, leaving the over used phrases behind, and I greatly appreciate that.
Ok, I’m not really sure what you mean by “grow more”.
Grow more than under a BSD license? More than under closed source?
And how do you measure growth? By lines of code, by features and innovation, by userbase, by jobs created?
LOC don’t really mean anything so I’ll leave them out of the game…
If we are talking about innovation I’d say GPL beats BSD and closed source, simply because people have to release the changes they made so one little improvement is not made again in 10 different places but rather somebody does it and other people/companies can go on and improve other things.
Userbase: Ok, there’s a whole lot more GPL software out there than BSD but BSD stuff can be more easily incorporated into projects using different licenses.
I’d say BSD beats GPL here which in turn beats closed source that’s usually not reused and sometimes too expensive.
So let’s get to jobs now.
Since you wrote “software engineers” in bold letters, I guess you are not counting people working with servers running linux and low cost stuff made possible by zero cost OSS (both, GPL and BSD).
If we look at the present situation closed source software has by far the most jobs to offer, followed by GPL and then BSD.
I think your argument that BSD is used by corporations and therefore creates jobs is seriously flawed:
Managers usually don’t think like “Hey, we can use this BSD stuff so we can employ more people working on different aspects of the software” but more like “Hey, we can use this BSD stuff so we don’t have to employ the people to code it. Let’s fire them!”
I think making money with OSS will become easier.
Especially GPL since corporations have to release the changes they made.
There are several ways:
-support
-giving donating users certain benefits
You could eg give their bug reports/feature requests higher priority.
Keep in mind that the whole OSS industry is just starting to develop. People simply need some time to get used to the change in sofware landscape.
The current shift to GPL by Sun and others indicates it might have started already.
Let me give you some examples:
In Germany there is a big shop that uses the slogan “Geiz ist geil” meaning “Greed is cool.”.
Maybe it was cool but nowadays everybody I know just thinks it sucks.
Take Audio CDs as another example:
You see, I can get them for free. I think it’s illegal but it’s no big deal, really. Nobody gives a bloody sh*t about it. So do we still buy CDs? Hell, yes! You go to friends and say “Hey, that looks neat, make me a copy. Oh, and I want a copy of that, too!”. Then you listen to the stuff. Most of it goes straight to the trash, of course. But every once and then you find something you like and buy it to support the band for their great work and to get the origninal CD in a cool case with lyrics and stuff. If there was no way to rip CDs and get mp3s off the net you would not know about the cool bands out there and they’d be making _less_ money, not more!
Transfer that to software:
I’m not sure I even know one single guy with a non-cracked version of Windows or Word.
Besides me, that is, but I don’t use it anymore.
The difference is that ripped music rules but cracked software still sucks in numerous ways.
That’s the reason why, imo, software companies are afraid of OSS and especially GPL:
They create some commercial piece of software, make various attempts at locking in the user and then rest on their laurels.
Which is why people can create a similar and maybe even better GPL licensed program.
Now, if it was a BSD licensed program the company could take parts of it, put them in their product, improve it a bit, not contribute anything and finally sell their product as superior to the OSS alternative in certain ways and probably again make some attempts at vendor lock in.
So in conclusion I’d say if one gives the whole thing a little more time there will be a healthy (partly) GPL based OSS industry and people _will_ be making money. I agree, however, that if a company tries to turn sh*t into gold it’s probably better off producing closed source software, maybe using the BSD licensed code of some competitor they crushed.
That being said, I must say the GPL is not the perfect license. But in my opinion it has its area of use and a little variety never hurts.
Actually, I think a market that’s 90% _anything_ is bad because it lacks variety.
We should not try to make something a black and white issue when it’s clearly not.
Which is exactly what I dislike about the GPL or, more precisely, the way it’s being promoted
“It just seems to me that you drank _way_ too much anti-GPL koolaid – actually it looks more like you took a dive in it
”
Well, then I see a bunch of developers (the majority of professional developers?) swimming in a sea of Coolaid
I’m sure most Software Developers/Engineers (me included) throughout the world think of the GPL as the biggest insult to the Software Engineering industry.
Hey!, just think about it for a moment. Do we go burn our eyebrows at a University/College for several years, then we go out to a *Woodstock* software land and start coding for free/fun and hobby giving our software away? Give me a break!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sorry for the strong comment, but that’s EXACTLY how ALL my co-workers feel about the GPL license, and we all live in a REAL software/commercial/corporate world
Good day!
Edited 2007-01-09 03:20
kwag: I’m sure most Software Developers/Engineers (me included) throughout the world think of the GPL as the biggest insult to the Software Engineering industry.
I doubt you have any numbers to back up your claim, but what i really find funny is the “insult” meme. What’s so insulting about the GPL? Does it belittle your sexual prowess, your intelligence, came it over and peed on your lawn? What did it other than to not conform to your idea how the world should be?
I guess you are locked in the “selling retail is the only way to make money with software development” mode. That’s a pity because that must create a serious existential angst, after all you are limiting yourself to sales-counter staff with no room to go. Free yourself from these constraints and you will understand why less confined indivduals and companies embrace free software.
Hey!, just think about it for a moment. Do we go burn our eyebrows at a University/College for several years, then we go out to a *Woodstock* software land and start coding for free/fun and hobby giving our software away? Give me a break!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You, as a studied software engineer, should not have problems distinguishing between different objects, here concepts of “free.” Even giving away software for no cost doesn’t mean you are working without payment. Some of the most successful software companies (e. g. Microsoft) give away software without charge and i bet they pay their developers. For example, i and all of my co-workers, we are paid to do our work. We exclusivly work with GPL software and we do heavy customization of this software in-house. No, we don’t “give back” everything, but then, we don’t distribute anything. It still saved my company a small fortune which means better pay for me and my collegues.
Sorry for the strong comment, but that’s EXACTLY how ALL my co-workers feel about the GPL license, and we all live in a REAL software/commercial/corporate world
You know, your limited ecosystem may be a good source for anecdotes, but remember: the plural of anecdote is not data.
My experience differs but i wouldn’t dare to extrapolate from this to “most Software Developers/Engineers (sic) throughout the world […]” Really, i wouldn’t.
Now you get to the point. Satanic capitalism is the problem. Not GPL. I do not believe in capitalism because it does not promote anything. GPL is about cooperation and humans. BSD is for enterprises. Capitalism my friend prevents innovation, you don’t see it immediately but the time is very close and if GPL would not be there MS would kill FreeBSD in months. So stop the “BSD rocks” FreeBSD lives with time bought by Linux.
“Satanic capitalism is the problem.”
…and we’re definitely not in Kansas anymore.
How can anyone kill if a project is under BSD license?
You have no interest in the BSD License or any *BSD OS. danieldk points out the advantages of the BSD license *better* than I can ever do.
The reality is your anti-GPL because you have a preference for Microsoft.products.
“””The reality is your anti-GPL because you have a preference for Microsoft.products.”””
There really should be a corollary to Godwin’s Law to cover this type of “argument”.
Sometimes I wonder if I was not too rash in dismissing a former OSAlert subscriber’s characterization of GPL supporters as a “cult”.
And BTW, I think you meant “you’re”.
no I definitely meant you. Although you can definitely find grammatical and spelling errors in my other posts, which I would be happy for you to peruse, as its an area I constantly try to improve, and one of the reasons why I post here.
My point is quite simple; look at the topic. A Gentoo developer wants to make FreeSBD available to build from its source, and has hit a licensing issue.
I see little there that would interest anyone, other than those who want such a thing.
The license problem in question has *nothing* to do with GPL its *entirely* about an advertising clause in BSD. Potentially it has implications for binary only software that uses BSD licensed code in their products like Apple or Microsoft.
So when I see this thread being used as an excuse to troll an anti-gpl rant. I ask myself why, having read his previous posts, and his current posts. I came to a conclusion. I can’t think of another one.
Edited 2007-01-09 14:22
only big companies that sell support to big companies make money from GPL. Small companies that sell software that don’t require support won’t make any money from GPL.
So we see that GPL favors the rich: big companies or those who can afford to give things away for free.
“So we see that GPL favors the rich: big companies or those who can afford to give things away for free.”
and…… the reciever who recieves a piece of free software?
That is why i always said, GPL is bad for long term growth of software industry.
It harms the software industry most. It is preventing software engineers from making money…money that is the most important thing in today’s world.
I wish money wasn’t most important but sadly it is. When you look at people in countries like India who don’t get 3 meals a day then you would know how important it is.
I was a mechanical engineer but they earn like 200$ per month in India. I came to software because i was passionate about it and because i was able to make a lucrative career using which i was able to satisfy my parents wishes and give them a better life. It enabled me to donate to poor kids in India.
Now just tell me, if all software in the world was GPL, how many engineers like me can be there?
But all engineers like me still need food, shelter, medicine etc, right?
So for long term growth of software industry, i boycott GPL. I really don’t want a medicore life like stallman who doesn’t have a family or a decent place to live.
Edited 2007-01-09 01:50
The GPL also means you don’t have to pay companies for compilers these days and then you can develop software for a lower price. Obviously people still get paid for it seeing how many people are employed to work on the Linux kernel and other GPL projects.
I also don’t get the “viral” thing you talk about because you’ve chosen to accept the terms of the GPL, it doesn’t “spread” of its own volition like the word implies.
You ignored all the important issues i brought on the table. I wish you discussed those issues first.
btw I never said GPL is viral.
As for people getting paid for GPL, i already said, count the number of software engineers getting paid for GPL vs software engineers getting paid for non-GPL work.
So do you agree that GPL is bad for long term growth of software industry?
If you do not agree, can you provide me a business model or ecosystem which will provide growth of software industry.
And please no pimping of software for selling hardware because if the control goes in the hardware vendors hands, they will just screw the software innovation and do whatever they can to make sure their hardware sell. Which was the case initially that gave rise to Windows and Microsoft et al. Read as: Hardware vendors controlling software doesn’t work.
Edited 2007-01-09 02:40
btw ubit you don’t have to pay to companies for compilers even if they were under BSD license. The only thing BSD would have allowed was for someone to improve it and commercialize it. I believe that is good for long term software growth and ecosystem and you don’t believe that.
I already gave an example of the good software ecosystem with BSD but you haven’t provided any for GPL.
You hate *BSD but love the license, and love Microsoft.
The ecosystem you describe is…Universities do work which Microsoft can pass off as their own.
I’m 100% certain that most Universities expect to get money from their projects one way or another today, and I’m not sure why you would expect them to do otherwise.
BTW the software ecosystem(sic) of GPL existed before any other, GPL is just a license that enforces it.
Ditto!
And MIT also rocks!
Just drop the goddamn license flamewar already. Really. It was stale and boring when dinosaurs roamed the earth and it sure hasn’t become any more interesting since.
I may be missing something.. but what’s wrong with explicitly acknowledging those who contribute? Why is it such a burden to maintain and “advertise” that list of contributors (doesn’t have to be obtrusive; it can be anywhere in the product AFAIK)
OpenDarwin is shutting down right now…
Does it matter if this licensing issue will affect to a dying project?
from gentoo.org:
What is Gentoo/FreeBSD?
Gentoo/FreeBSD is a subproject of the Gentoo/Alt project, with the goal of providing a fully-capable FreeBSD operating system featuring design sensibilities taken from Gentoo Linux, such as the init system and the Portage package management system.
Switch Ports to Portage – What for? You dont get nothing new and You get something slower and less polished then Ports system.
Switch Linux kernel to FreeBSD kernel and use it with Portage – Again. What for? With Linux kernel you get only advantages in that case, Crossover Office, great Wine and Cedega support, native VMware, Oracle … and many more to stick with Linux kernel.
Init System – instead of rc scripts, is Init so fscking outrageous to switch to it, *BSD rc scripts do their job very well so why bother Init?
Run FreeBSD OS with its strenghts/stability/scalability or go Gentoo all the way and benefit from Linux kernel and bigger commercial support for it.
http://blogs.ittoolbox.com/unix/bsd/archives/the-big-license-mess-1…
It’s a non-issue.
One guy is confused, and now everyone who listens to him gets confused.
GPL is causing an increasing number of problems within the FOSS community itself.
People like you have been coming out with stuff like that since day 1. And since day one, Linux adoption has been increasing and stuff like that has been BS.