When it comes to troublesome Linux peripherals, WiFi takes the cake. Sparked by the Portland Project’s efforts to bring standardization to the Linux desktop, the Linux wireless developer community tackled this problem at its second Linux Wireless Summit last month in London.
Linux Hackers Tackle WiFi Hassles
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSAlert.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli
It would be really nice to have better native support for wifi cards. But in order for that to happen the manufacturers will have to finally open up the specs. For now Linux just needs to implement a better ndiswrapper config tool.
PCLinuxOS is the only Linux distribution that I’ve found which has a ndiswrapper GUI wizard to assist with installing wireless windows drivers on Linux. I found it remarkably easy to get a D-Link DWL-G510 wireless card working on PCLinuxOS than compared to using the same model with OpenSUSE.
I do agree it would be better to have native wireless drivers for Linux provided by manufacturers. Currently if I recall correctly Linksys is the only one that officially supports Linux.
Yeah, Linksys is all about Linux in some cases but most of their wifi adapter are Broadcom based and don’t have Linux drivers, and thats were ndiswrapper comes in. BTW…Good to know about PCLinux; I’ve only ever used it on a desktop with wired LAN.
You are boldly wrong, Ralink supports open source drivers via assisting developers of OpenBSD’s drivers as well as providing a GPL licensed Linux driver, that’s Ralink, since they produce wireless, while Cisco’s Linksys division uses other people’s wireless, mostly Broadcom.
> Ralink supports open source drivers via assisting > developers of OpenBSD’s drivers as well as providing a GPL licensed Linux driver,
Even though that is true, the Linux driver is not very good.
The driver that is in FreeBSD works much better in my experience.
Edited 2007-02-09 15:43
That’s the OpenBSD driver, Damien Bergamini develops it for OpenBSD and it then has to be ported to FreeBSD, much like the wpi, iwi and ipw wireless drivers. Damien used to develop for FreeBSD as well, but the developers around him kept making comments about the legality of reverse engineering and generally treating his work as useless. The efforts to get wpi working on FreeBSD have been quite terrible.
Intel’s wireless chipsets have good official drivers.
http://ipw2100.sourceforge.net/
I would not consider those drivers Intel makes to be good, they don’t even allow documentation for the people doing it – it’s a community development, not an Intel one.
Plus their drivers make use of binary nonsense like Atheros does.
Mandriva has this Gui configuration tool, but that makes sense, since PCLinuxOS comes from Mandrake/Mandriva.
It would be really nice to have better native support for wifi cards. But in order for that to happen the manufacturers will have to finally open up the specs. For now Linux just needs to implement a better ndiswrapper config tool.
Thats not actually the problem; alot of the time the driver is actually there and opensource; ipw3945abg is opensourced and merged into kernels as shipped by distributions.
The big problem are the binary blobs (hence the Blob song for OpenBSD) and the binary only user land tool, as with the case of the Intel wireless drivers and the regulartory daemon which must run the background to enforce FCC regulartory requirements.
For once, more meetings are actually a good thing. One of the weaknesses of community open source development is that consolidation of effort is generally a gradual process (which I’ve discussed in previous comments). If the Linux wireless maintainer is pushing d80211 and cfg80211, then the driver development community better be on the same page.
Face-to-face meetings aren’t necessary, but accountability is. There’s the linux-wireless mailing list on vger.kernel.org, I’m sure there’s an IRC channel, and they might even be able to use VoIP conferencing. However they want to do it, the development community needs to know which way to run with the ball.
It’s obvious that this face-to-face meeting could have been a lot more productive if the attendees had done their homework first. Most of the major resolutions made at this summit involved the need to pursue more information. They could have figured that out on the mailing list.
This is one of those times where the presence of the OSDL is sorely missing. We don’t need them to fund hackers. We need them to fund project managers that make sure the hackers are on the same page. Don’t they understand this?
With the competing wifi stacks, I would love to know the rationale behind each of the camps decisions; I mean, there has to be a logical explaination as to why Intel insists on using their own stack over the one included with Linux, and vice versa – maybe someone can shed some light onto the subject.
The problem is with leadership, OSDL and opensource is this idea that there is something ‘evil’ about leadership – but like any large project, sooner or later someone has to put their foot down and say, “this is how it is to be done, like it or lump it” and for everyone to put their empire building ego’s aside for the bettermeant of the group rather than flogging a dead horse.
Thats probably the one benefit with paid coders; they may hate the particular direction chosen by the powers that be, but they put their ego aside and remind themselves that they get paid and simply should fall inline.
I mean, I’m sure we’ve all been in situations where we think that the decision may have sounded stupid at the time, but when looking back, generally there is a reason for the decisions, may I suggest the volunteers in the Linux developer community take the said approach and put the development of the operating system ahead of flag raising on what ever mountain they think they must create, climb and claim as their own.
These are very good points. I think it’s important to emphasize that a good chunk of the Linux wireless development community is directly funded by hardware vendors. These developers are accountable to their employers, so it is their responsibility to manage their managers. They need to bring it to their attention that the Linux wireless stack is evolving in a particular way, and therefore that they should strongly consider aligning their strategy to leverage the work of the kernel community.
The kernel community also needs to become more upfront about the rationale behind architecture overhauls. I believe that if we really had statistics on why the Linux kernel developers trash existing components, the most common reason would be that it had few users because it didn’t adequately address the needs of its intended audience. We need to do a better job of collecting feedback from our clients, whether they be end-users, other kernel developers, or commercial vendors. With this information, and a more open dialog on architecture decisions, it will be easier to create lasting interfaces that serve their clients’ needs.
I don’t think that OSS developers are opposed to top-down leadership in general. They are opposed to leadership that ignores the opinions of the majority of the stakeholders. In community development cultures, we have an inherent meritocracy based on majority rules. Leadership in these scenarios involves driving consensus. There is an important role to be played here, and it isn’t currently being done in a big way.
I don’t think that OSS developers are opposed to top-down leadership in general. They are opposed to leadership that ignores the opinions of the majority of the stakeholders. In community development cultures, we have an inherent meritocracy based on majority rules. Leadership in these scenarios involves driving consensus. There is an important role to be played here, and it isn’t currently being done in a big way.
But at the same time, you don’t want to end up in a situation of ‘the bicycle that was designed by a committee’ – prime examples of how bloated, slow, inefficient committee’s and communities get in the way would be OpenGL and how long it took to standardise OpenGL 2.0 – should it really have taken that long? whilst they were potificating over the patent bicker and cross licencing, DirectX was eating up customers because of its ability to address customers (developers and end users) problems in a prompt and efficient manner – as a side issue, I’d love to see Microsoft standardise DirectX and make it available so that people on non-Windows platforms can implement it; the actual design of DirectX in no way would require major changes as it isn’t exactly something which is glued to Windows persay.
Back to developers, however, the problem with developers is this; its pretty much the same for many intelligent people; the brightest are not always able to express themselves in the best possible way, meaning, you don’t always end up having the ‘best idea’ chosen, but instead, ‘the idea that was best explained’ – hence the need for a ‘benevolent dictator’ who is removed from the nitty-gritty development and can make a decision based on what is there, rather than letting the two pitch the idea, resulting in a wedge between two groups.
The other problem that ends up having is people love putting their name to something; there are those who couldn’t care less about status and those who seem to be hell bent on wanting their name in lights at every opportunity and take any criticism of their project personally – prime example of that would be reiserfs developers and the fact that v4 hasn’t been merged into the maintree.
Funny, OpenBSD doesn’t seem to have a problem. Perhaps these people should try working with OpenBSD instead of trying to get a better ndiswrapper and more random binary blobs.
Yeah, and the Linux command line tools could be better.
Why does ‘iwconfig’ exist? Wireless interfaces should be configured like any other network device, through ifconfig. OpenBSD does it this way and I find it to be much more intuitive.
Well, it did take OpenBSD a bit of work to merge wicontrol into ifconfig, so I can almost understand some people being a bit lazy about combining the two. The biggest problem is really what the summit is all about, that noone really works together in one spot, everyone develops their own project off on their own server, with noone tracking it all.
I really think that if all these wireless fans worked to improve OpenBSD’s toolset and then port it over to Linux it would result in a better system, but that’s a lot of work.
I think this depends on the wireless card. I have an Intel wireless card and it works fine with ifconfig.
Why does ‘iwconfig’ exist? Wireless interfaces should be configured like any other network device, through ifconfig. OpenBSD does it this way and I find it to be much more intuitive.
Mainly because wireless needs to be treated differently than a wired network because of the issues of error correction, signal attenuation and the likes – its a different beast and needs to be treated different – hence the reason why Microsoft had to develop a whole seperate stack to take into account required wireless features suck as large frames, error correction and the likes.
> Funny, OpenBSD doesn’t seem to have a problem.
Indeed. What I think Linux people should do is swallow their pride and NIH-attitude, and just bring in the BSD drivers and frameworks.
This is the joke of the year “OpenBSd as no problem…”
The problem is reality say BSD gets its driver from GNU/Linux and the opened documentation we did get …
So why would GNU/Linux port back its own driver that where ported to BSD but don’t even work perfectly and are not supported by anyone ?
Also you got tons of illegal drivers that we cant port due to the fact that , unlike BSD , GNU/Linux as billion dollar company backing it , we would spend more money defending ourself in court , then pay for actual development , wait that remind me of some group , yes thats BSD …
But that’s not all , once you establish the list of actual wireless process : Wi-Fi, WiBro, WiMAX, UMTS-TDD, HSDPA, Satellite.
OpenBSD or BSD is nowhere supported by no one at all.
But thats not all , we can scale down to only wifi and see that OpenBSD and BSD are as usual fabulating in there own world :
List the Networking companies of the United States
3
* 3Com
A
* ADC Telecommunications
* Alacritech
* Aten Technology, Inc.
B
* BBN Technologies
* Barracuda Networks
* Belkin
* Berbee
* Blue Coat Systems
* Broadcom
C
* CAI Networks
* Cabletron Systems
* Cisco Systems
* Crescendo Networks
D
* Digi International
E
* Enterasys Networks
* Expand Networks
* Extreme Networks
F
* F5 Networks
* FatPipe Networks
L
* Lantronix
* Linksys
M
* Motorola Networks
N
* Netgear
P
* Proxim Wireless
R
* Redback Networks
* Riverbed Technology
S
* SMC Networks
* SonicWALL
* Spam Cube
* Sveasoft
T
* Terabeam
W
* Wellfleet Communications
Y
* YAGO
Networking hardware companies
A
* AT&T Technologies
* Alcatel (old company)
* Allied Wire and Cable, Inc.
B
* Billion (company)
C
* CNet Technology
* Compuspec
D
* D-Link
E
* Eicon
* Endace
* Ericsson
F
* Fortinet
H
* Huawei
I
* Ingate Systems
J
* Juniper Networks
L
* Lightning MultiCom
M
* Mikrotik
N
* Nexans
P
* PacketFront
R
* Ralink
S
* SMC Networks
* Sandvine
U
* Umax
Z
* ZTE
Would be fun if it where in reality true , but as usual , its a lie and hype of BSD.
Hi Moulinneuf,
You need to cheer up! Posting angry comments about the “traitor BSDs” doesn’t seem to be helping your mood at all. I know that winter can be quite depressing in Quebec, but you need to get away from your keyboard and get outside for a sunny afternoon. If it happens to be snowing perhaps you could visit a tanning salon to relax, soak in some rays, and dream about the warm months that are just a couple of months around the corner.
Your friend
— OpenWookie
I guess making lists for you is getting angry , for me its not its quite interesting and it help figure out who’s lying from who is telling the truth. I would be quite happy for BSD if they had more and better driver , but reality show me its not the case at all , so I respectfully point out that they are lying , nothing personal or emotional there
Also In Quebec winter is not depressing , you might not like winter sport , but I do , Hockey , skying , snow-boarding , ski-doo , etc … is quite fun … Come and visit :
http://www.bonjourquebec.com/qc-en/accueil0.html
“Your friend ”
My friend use there real name sorry …
I guess making lists for you is getting angry , for me its not its quite interesting and it help figure out who’s lying from who is telling the truth.
But that’s just not the case. Every time there is a comment that claims that a BSD might in fact be useful for something, you go ahead and write a long winded diatribe about how much BSD sucks. And frankly it’s gotten quite boring. You don’t like BSD, or its license, and you feel that it’s functionality is lacking. Fair enough. But you don’t need to jump in with your (often insulting) comments. Frankly, it belittles you, and cheapens the other comments that you post about linux (which are occasionally insightful IMO).
I would be quite happy for BSD if they had more and better driver , but reality show me its not the case at all , so I respectfully point out that they are lying , nothing personal or emotional there
It is the experience of others (including my own) that BSD works flawlessly with a wide range of hardware, including some that various linux distros have had issues with (my Fujitsu laptop for example). On the other hand there are cases where the converse is true, and the BSDs are lacking drivers (my brand new Acer laptop for example, which runs Ubuntu). I usually run into this with newly released hardware.
It may be your experience that you’ve had driver issues with BSD in the past, but jumping to conclusions and calling others “liars” is frankly insulting to those who have had different experiences than you.
Also In Quebec winter is not depressing , you might not like winter sport , but I do , Hockey , skying , snow-boarding , ski-doo , etc … is quite fun … Come and visit :
http://www.bonjourquebec.com/qc-en/accueil0.html
I was in Montreal in December. It’s a wonderful city. My parents own a ski-doo which I drive when I visit them (just outside of Ottawa). You do understand that my previous comment was entirely tongue-in-cheek, don’t you?
“But that’s just not the case.”
No , its your false perception and interpretation , I don’t write that much about BSD , but it resonate a lot because its true ( and said in an offensive tone ).
“You go ahead and write a long winded diatribe about how much BSD sucks”
No , I give a lot of information , like this comment for example , I listed pretty much everyone who make networking devices. Its only annoying for liars as it prove them wrong.
“You don’t like BSD, or its license”
No , and I say why. But my liking it as no real impact , you saying it work flawlessly does , because it don’t and people don’t realize work need to be done.
“But you don’t need to jump in with your (often insulting) comments.”
Actually , I do , I don’t see anyone say , hey wait a minute thats a lie , because that’s what it is.
“Frankly, it belittles you, and cheapens the other comments that you post about linux (which are occasionally insightful IMO). ”
Not really , your trying to paint me as you would like me to be. It don’t affect me or how people perceive me at all.
“It is the experience of others (including my own) that BSD works flawlessly with a wide range of hardware”
Yes you say that , but when I say put up 100 000$ for my 1000$ we get all the latest Dell notebook and we see how much BSD is a failure , your going to be out of 100 000$ at the first notebook.
“including some that various linux distros have had issues with (my Fujitsu laptop for example”
Yes , your fujitsu is a *special* case , the installer don’t know what he is doing …
” calling others “liars” is frankly insulting to those who have had different experiences than you. ”
Its meant to be insulting , because your thinking that your Fujitsu and your Acer are the only two laptop that exist … Take all Fujitsu , take all Acer , there is not 2% of those that run OpenBSD or BSD , 97% can be made to run GNU/Linux from experts , the other 3% are prototype we have seen or can guess are coming but don’t have the specs yet …
I have zero trouble with BSD , when it exist I can make it work , most of the time the driver and software and solution don’t exist , But I have something under GNU/Linux for it.
“You do understand that my previous comment was entirely tongue-in-cheek, don’t you?”
I am still inviting you to come visit Quebec , its a really nice place with a lot of activity , we also have the best BSD group around , only second to the GNU/Linux group.
Take all Fujitsu , take all Acer , there is not 2% of those that run OpenBSD or BSD , 97% can be made to run GNU/Linux from experts
I love how you pull numbers straight out of your ass and expect me and everyone else to swallow it as truth.
You are 97% osnews troll, 100% when the subject is BSD. That’s a fact.
Yes , keep thinking its from my ass.
Problem is Acer as a GNU/Linux distribution by default in Asia. I got the numbers.
Novell/SUSE as a territorial deal with Fujitsu/siemens on laptop. I got the numbers.
BSD only as a community effort with zero developer and zero budget.
If any BSD was better then GNU/Linux that’s what they would ship , nothing personal they use what work and make them money at the lowest cost. Don’t work don’t sell , work all the time make the sale.
You need to take a break and rejoin reality …
Yes , keep thinking its from my ass.
Well, it’s true.
Problem is Acer as a GNU/Linux distribution by default in Asia. I got the numbers.
Novell/SUSE as a territorial deal with Fujitsu/siemens on laptop. I got the numbers.
Yet, you never post the numbers. How interesting.
BSD only as a community effort with zero developer and zero budget.
If any BSD was better then GNU/Linux that’s what they would ship , nothing personal they use what work and make them money at the lowest cost. Don’t work don’t sell , work all the time make the sale.
I haven’t seen any evidence that they ship Linux at all. Otherwise, wouldn’t Acer’s Broadcom wireless chips be supported? Oh wait, they’re not.
You need to take a break and rejoin reality …
lol
“Well, it’s true.”
No , but keep thinking that
“Yet, you never post the numbers. How interesting. ”
I post them , but not here. I don’t share them for free either , sorry.
“I haven’t seen any evidence that they ship Linux at all.”
Its not like they or me have to report to you …
“Otherwise, wouldn’t Acer’s Broadcom wireless chips be supported?”
Do , your homework …
“Oh wait, they’re not.”
I guess those who use it need to return there computer because you say it don’t exist …
Dont worry , I find you really amusing.
“Otherwise, wouldn’t Acer’s Broadcom wireless chips be supported?”
Do , your homework …
The fact is, it is only supported through NDIS wrapper.
You remind me of the Bush administration. Repeating yourself makes it true, despite any evidence to the contrary.
This is the last comment of the night. You’re getting boring.
“The fact is, it is only supported through NDIS wrapper.”
Do , your homework …
“You remind me of the Bush administration.”
Well no , but you would like to associate me with them.
“Repeating yourself makes it true”
I don’t repeat myself. I always use the most accurate information I possess to give my answers.
“despite any evidence to the contrary.”
I don’t call you opposing reality and facts , evidence.
“This is the last comment of the night.”
comment ? you mean your fed up spreading lies and personnal attack and insult that have nothing to do with GNU/Linux wifi netowrking or BSD networking …
“You’re getting boring.”
Well the truth is always boring.
Moulinneuf, do you do anything but troll? I mean, just look at how you’re constantly getting marked down, perhaps you should reconsider how you spend your time, as many people seem to find your opinions offensive.
The BSD drivers are not ports of the Linux ones, I have explained this to you specifically before – they are reimplementations, new code created based on an understanding of how the original functions, this is, as I have told you, because the GPL is not compatible with the BSD licence, the code must be made anew in order for it to be of any use to a BSD.
Reverse engineering is a completely legal and viable means to create something, there is nothing illicit in finding out how something works and making a new implementation of it without including the original inside.
I could list a bunch of random companies that support OpenBSD in one manner or another, but I don’t need to, they’re listed on OpenBSD’s website along with individuals that help out. They do include AMD, 3ware, AMI, and Google – companies I am sure you’ve never heard of.
* also worth checking into is how to properly quote someone, as you’re misquoting me in response to someone else *
Edited 2007-02-09 20:33
Janizary , its not a popularity contest , I could care less that you and your five identity don’t like me and mod me down , you , again made a technical lie , that I have once again proved false in 5 seconds.
The BSD driver are paid for by GNU/Linux are made by GNU/Linux developer and are port of GNU/Linux based on GNU/Linux obtained documentation. I don’t care that you disagree with reality.
The GPL is compatible with BSD , But its not compatible with the license traitor and switcher who use BSD to close and steal the code to another license.
Reverse engineering is completely illegal and not a viable means to create something that you wish the market to support and use.
“I could list a bunch of random companies that support OpenBSD”
What’s more lies …
Lets just take one Ralink :
http://www.ralinktech.com/ralink/Home/Support.html
“Ralink supports Linux open source projects, and offers drivers for Linux, Microsoft Windows, Macintosh and Intel IXP environments for all Ralink WLAN chipset solutions.”
No official BSD support … Yet you falsely claimed that they support OpenBSD. When everyone know its a one man hack job.
“they’re listed on OpenBSD’s website”
Nothing there lets try :
http://www.openbsd.org/support.html
Nope nothing of value there either.
“They do include AMD, 3ware, AMI, and Google ”
AMD don’t support OpenBSD they ask that there supported project use there logo , they also financially support those who they support.
3ware don’t support OpenBSD they ask that there supported project use there logo , they also financially support those who they support.
AMI don’t support OpenBSD they ask that there supported project use there logo , they also financially support those who they support.
Google don’t support OpenBSD they ask that there supported project use there logo , they also financially support those who they support.
The only company that support OpenBSd is HP and SUN by giving some servers , the other donate money for taxes purposes.
That’s it.
You are very confused, very, very, confused, I will leave it to you to google, since I am sick of trying to educate you, but here’s the topics for you:
reverse engineering in Canada
the Mozilla Foundation’s 10, 000 dollar donation to OpenBSD
GoDaddy.com’s 10, 000 dollar donation to OpenBSD
Google’s 10, 000 dollar donation to OpenBSD
the lack of tax deductions for donations to OpenBSD
When you’re done with all that, fee free to correct your own damned self, I don’t want to be bothered with all of it.
Edited 2007-02-09 22:51
Not confused at all. You never educate me either …
Reverse engineering Networking is illegal in many country where its considered a means of communication highly regulated. Thats hwy our professionnal and GNU/Linux lawyer say we cant include them , your driver are illegal , sorry I trust them a hole lot more then you.
– Mozilla foundation made 30+ millions from Google …
– Google paid Dell 1 billion USD to be there main webpage.
I also don’t know where you got those numbers , but they are meaningless and probably wrong , that don’t even pay the salary of one 50 000$ developer , I don’t think it pay for all the OpenBSD spending in one month either. Just for bandwidth …
Wrong again. It took me all of 5 minutes to find this info:
Ralink
Ralink is a Taiwanese manufacturer of Wi-Fi chipsets. They are best known for offering open-source drivers under the GPL and in the past have given OpenBSD developers documentation for their chipsets. OpenBSD’s ral and ural drivers support most ralink chipsets; the drivers have been ported to FreeBSD and NetBSD; an attempt is being made to port them to Linux.
(http://www.vendorwatch.org/index.php?title=Ralink)
AMD
“The coolest thing about AMD,” Jason noted, “as just a regular user I went to their website and downloaded everything I needed. I didn’t have to sign in, I didn’t have to register, I didn’t need to get a special login, I just went to the website and downloaded.” He added that AMD has always been very open, something highly valued by the OpenBSD project.
(http://www.vendorwatch.org/index.php?title=AMD)
3ware
Not quite yet supported, but it’s looking more promising.
“We will look into supporting OpenBSD, especially if we get several requests from customers for it, so far you are the first. If you would like, feel free to port the FreeBSD driver to OpenBSD.”
(http://www.vendorwatch.org/index.php?title=3Ware)
[/i]
AMI[/i]
LSI is the manufacturer of the AMI MegaRAID range of RAID controllers.
Unlike most other vendors of RAID products, LSI Logic have provided sufficient documentation to develop tools to utilise the RAID functionality on the card. On OpenBSD, this has resulted in the development of the bioctl(8) tool that can interrogate array status, promote unused drives to “hot spare” status and control the alarms and LEDs on the controller and drive enclosures.
(http://www.vendorwatch.org/index.php?title=LSI)
Google
Google donates $10000 to OpenBSD
(http://undeadly.org/cgi?action=article&sid=20060517091103)
Ralink is :
http://www.ralinktech.com/ralink/Home/Support.html
AMD is :
http://www.amd.com
3ware is :
http://www.3ware.com/
Directly from vendor watch :
“3Ware has repeatedly said they will not support OpenBSD in any way”
LSI is :
http://www.lsilogic.com/
NOT ONE OF THEM SHOW ANY BSD OR OpenBSD DRIVERS … , not one of the officially recognize or support OpenBSD.
Google donates $10 000 to OpenBSD in 2006.
Donation is not support , Firefox is supported by Google they got million for it …
NOT ONE OF THEM SHOW ANY BSD OR OpenBSD DRIVERS
You are a fool … of course not. You never have to download OpenBSD drivers because OPENBSD DOES NOT ACCEPT DRIVERS THAT THEY CAN’T REDISTRIBUTE THEMSELEVES.
*All* of the driver are included with the OS, there is nothing to download.
In fact, OpenBSD has NEVER asked a vendor for a driver. They will not accept vendor supplied drivers. They ONLY ask for documentation so they can write their own.
“You are a fool … ”
No , I don’t believe one word from you
“You never have to download OpenBSD drivers because OPENBSD DOES NOT ACCEPT DRIVERS THAT THEY CAN’T REDISTRIBUTE THEMSELEVES.”
Thats why GNU/Linux as driver and is more supported …
“*All* of the driver are included with the OS, there is nothing to download.”
Bullshit. There is nothing to download and it don’t work because the driver and the platform is not supported.
The only fact I see is your going to invent excuse for every situations.
Yes documentation is doing wonder when you don’t even have the device … No wonder BSD is lagging behind in reality.
Bullshit. There is nothing to download and it don’t work because the driver and the platform is not supported.
The only fact I see is your going to invent excuse for every situations.
I didn’t invent anything. Look it up, troll.
“I didn’t invent anything.”
On that your right …
“Look it up”
I did , your wrong and lying.
“troll.”
Thats going to help my OpenBSD and BSD systems work with the device I have , have listed and that you claim drivers exist for it but in reality don’t.
Your a Moron …
He proberly did look it up and figured out that he was wrong.. But you’ll never get him to admit that. He’s a complete waste of air.
He’s the notparker of the OSS side. Lots of bs and with nothing to back it up with. And if he does decide to share his “information” you’ll see that he changes it to fit his reality.
Hamster , my favorite lying rodent
No , I don’t have to look it up , I know where most device stand with everything BSD.
Its not because OpenBSd as the driver for one or two device in a line and that the company give them access to documentation for certain device on the side that it means that the OS is supported or that you can pick any device from that company and OpenBSD will work with it.
I ain’t on the OSS side , OSS means Open Source , I dislike Open Source just as much as I dislike BSD , they are the same exact group in fact.
I offered the official name and official link to the company making networking device , but its never good or enough for you as far as I am concerned.
Bug off Moulinneuf, shouldn’t you have surrendered by now? Everyone but you understands reality and you’re still going on about your own magical world. Submit to the fact that you know nothing and start learning things, one day, when you’re older, perhaps you’ll learn about how to be a man about things like this.
Janizary ,
Surrendered ? Magical world ? Submit to ? Older ? Be a man ? Wow , you truly reversed reality and the situation here.
Your just a moron , who think that 2 -3 device out of a one or two company in a sector who as over a hundred company who make 500+ device each and who officially and publicly say we don’t support OpenBSD at all make you winners because you moderated down my comments on OSAlert.
Well clearly we must surrender the financial , hardware device and default driver on the CD/DVD we receive and also the official support for GNU/Linux , because you said we are loosing. Wait no reality don’t work that way.
“Hamster , my favorite lying rodent ”
But i unlike you don’t need to lie to get things to fit to my reality.
I’m not the one who has been proven to lie… you are.
“Its not because OpenBSd as the driver for one or two device in a line and that the company give them access to documentation for certain device on the side that it means that the OS is supported or that you can pick any device from that company and OpenBSD will work with it. ”
I don’t remember seeing anyone make the claim that Openbsd supports all hardware out of the box
“I ain’t on the OSS side , OSS means Open Source , I dislike Open Source just as much as I dislike BSD , they are the same exact group in fact. ”
Point being? I happen to dislike the “free software” part of foss… But that doesnt mean i feel a need to go around lieing about them.
“I offered the official name and official link to the company making networking device , but its never good or enough for you as far as I am concerned. ”
One company… Your links most often to need to be twisted to fit you reality. Just like your claim that the bsd’s are funded by the linux just because some linux company has decided to give the freebsd some money.
“I’m not the one who has been proven to lie.”
Yes , *hamster* , you are …
“I don’t remember seeing”
First comment I replied to and the GP of it …
“anyone make the claim that Openbsd supports all hardware out of the box”
Trying to change the subject again , why am I not surprised , I don’t recall anyone talking about out of the box support , nice of you to add it to things all BSD’ lacks , but then OpenBSD is never in the box so , it fail that too , the objection I have , is about the lie that OpenBSD offer better device and hardware support then GNU/Linux.
“Point being?”
You never get the point …
” I happen to dislike the “free software” part of foss…”
Yes , I know …
“But that doesnt mean i feel a need to go around lieing about them. ”
Your doing it now and all the time
“One company…”
Not really , but nice of you of not following the discussion , as usual :
http://www.osnews.com/permalink.php?news_id=17212&comment_id=210911
“Your links most often to need to be twisted to fit you reality.”
I point to the official link of the device vendor. There official version , I am not the one twisting reality here.
“Just like your claim that the bsd’s are funded by the linux just because some linux company has decided to give the freebsd some money.”
I don’t make claim , you don’t like what it shows , also you don’t get the full picture and are concentrating on one company only and one project only.
You can always try and match all the GNU/Linux users and company donation , support and funding and developer to BSD’s , but then I doubt you have that kind of money and resource. Your not even interested in finding the truth about it either.
hamster , spin that wheeeel
“Yes , *hamster* , you are … ”
But do provide a link to the post.
“First comment I replied to and the GP of it … ”
Again your twisting the facts.. He did’nt say anything about all hardware.
“Trying to change the subject again , why am I not surprised , I don’t recall anyone talking about out of the box support , nice of you to add it to things all BSD’ lacks , but then OpenBSD is never in the box so , it fail that too , the objection I have , is about the lie that OpenBSD offer better device and hardware support then GNU/Linux. ”
Unless your trying to say that answering your bs is chaning the subject i’d say no.
“You never get the point … ”
That might be because you never have a point but pure trolling.
“Your doing it now and all the time ”
And yet you cant seem to backup your claims about me lieing…
“Not really , but nice of you of not following the discussion , as usual : ”
Talk about changing the topic…
“I point to the official link of the device vendor. There official version , I am not the one twisting reality here. ”
Did you now? That would be a first.
“I don’t make claim , you don’t like what it shows , also you don’t get the full picture and are concentrating on one company only and one project only.”
Well if saying that all bsd’s are funded by linux because freebsd got some money from ONE linux company isnt making a false claim i don’t know what to call it. And don’t talk about the full picture. Do talk about your claims and what you use to back them up.
“You can always try and match all the GNU/Linux users and company donation , support and funding and developer to BSD’s , but then I doubt you have that kind of money and resource. Your not even interested in finding the truth about it either. ”
What makes you think i give a rats ass about the userbase of a overlyped system? Or does the userbase now say what system is the best? Then linux loses big time to windows you know.
Someone like you shouldn’t be talking about the truth. You wouldn’t see the truth even if jumped up and down in front of you.
“But do provide a link to the post. ”
I got better all your posts …
http://www.osnews.com/usercomments.php?uid=9573
“Again your twisting the facts.. He did’nt say anything about all hardware. ”
try to follow , and not introduce your own bulshit :
http://www.osnews.com/permalink.php?news_id=17212&comment_id=210881
http://www.osnews.com/permalink.php?news_id=17212&comment_id=210748
“Unless your trying to say that answering your bs ”
Your not answering me or even addressing me , your failing to insult me …
“That might be because you never have a point”
No I have a point , If I did not BSD’s would be in front of everyone else including Windows , in everything …
“And yet you cant seem ”
Only in your mind …
“Talk about changing the topic… ”
I did not change the topic …
“Did you now? ”
As always , yes …
“That would be a first. ”
No , I always point to official and never twist anything , no need for it.
“Well if saying that all bsd’s are funded by linux because freebsd got some money from ONE linux company isnt making a false claim i don’t know what to call it. ”
Hamster usual bulshit … I point you to a list and you concentrate on one particular …
“And don’t talk about the full picture”
Well , no , hamster I talk about what I want and is true not your bullshit.
“Do talk about your claims and what you use to back them up. ”
I don’t make claim , If you cant read what I offer , that’s not my problem.
“What makes you think i give a rats ass about the userbase of a overlyped system?”
You discussing its funding and harassing me discussing it …
“Or does the userbase now say what system is the best?”
No , the realism of its user with there current problems , saying lies to hype one OS don’t help.
“Then linux loses big time to windows you know.”
No , GNU/Linux is in competition with itself. As does windows , as does BSD , as does any OS …
“Someone like you shouldn’t be talking about the truth.”
Someone like me always say the truth , but then there is more people like you who don’t like to hear the truth or be reminded of it.
“You wouldn’t see the truth even if jumped up and down in front of you.”
Hamster , spin that wheeeellll
“I got better all your posts … ”
Once again proven to be full of bs…
“try to follow , and not introduce your own bulshit : ”
Follow what? Your twisted logic?
“Your not answering me or even addressing me , your failing to insult me … ”
How can you fail in something you arent doing..? Insulting you would be to easy.. Thus not as funny as proving you wrong. Your claims about you being right and everyone else wrong just makes you sad.
“No I have a point , If I did not BSD’s would be in front of everyone else including Windows , in everything”
When will be see your point?
“Only in your mind … ”
Don’t even start to think you know what doing on in the mind of a sane person.
“I did not change the topic … ”
Well you claimed i changed the topic by responding to your bs you gotta make up your mind.
“As always , yes … ”
If you say so
“No , I always point to official and never twist anything , no need for it. ”
Sadly not true…
http://www.osnews.com/permalink.php?news_id=17133&comment_id=208521
You only provide one link there and you do claim that linux provides all the funds needed for all bsd’s. If that isnt twisting facts i dont’ know what it is.
“Hamster usual bulshit … I point you to a list and you concentrate on one particular … ”
You havent provided links to others to back up your bs. And take a look at your own link. ONE linux company.
“Well , no , hamster I talk about what I want and is true not your bullshit. ”
You know your sad attempts to manipulate my posts by moving parts of responds around is really sad.
“You discussing its funding and harassing me discussing it …”
When did i ever show interest for how linux is being funded?
“No , the realism of its user with there current problems , saying lies to hype one OS don’t help. ”
Do remember that when your spreading your lies about the bsd’s
“No , GNU/Linux is in competition with itself. As does windows , as does BSD , as does any OS … ”
Nice twist… trying to get out of the hole you been digging.
“Someone like me always say the truth , but then there is more people like you who don’t like to hear the truth or be reminded of it. ”
Erm no. You don’t allways tell the truth. And unlike you i can actually back my statements up with other then pure bs.
Take a look at this respond from you
http://www.osnews.com/permalink.php?news_id=17133&comment_id=208521
“Yes , intentionnaly as it is wrong and a lie , but Google and me think its false … I was under the impression I actually missed a real one. ”
And then look at the google define here..
http://www.google.dk/search?hl=da&q=define%3A+viral&btnG=Google…
Telling the thruth..? Your full of bs and a complete waste of air.
Let me know when you grow up so you can have a grown up talk with other people… Then i might waste more time on you but now your surely not worth the effort. Your sad attempts to manipulate everything you fit into your sad sad world doesnt make it right you know. Or no you don’t know.
No *hamster* , you are the one who is full of BS. Otherwise you would have no problem using your real name with your own comments.
Just following a simple thread is too difficult for you , you want to discuss other discussion thread where there too I have shown you to be lying and wrong , those discussion are over Hamster. Bringing them back at every discussion and twisting them wont make you win them.
You cant be more pathetic then saying I showed only one company when one of my comment in this very thread list several of them. You also bring back my old comment deformed to fit your view , when I showed you the listing you made a fixation on the one at the top , when I discuss the majority.
You say you dont insult me but , you must be a real moron not to know that :
“Your full of bs and a complete waste of air”
Is an insult …
You ask when you will see my point , the sad answer in your case is you cant , you live in your deformed reality where everything is fine and the only problem to it is me making realistic and truthful comment that disturb how you organized the world inside your mind.
Sorry hamster but you don’t have a sane mind. You dont even use your mind in making your comment , you just write insult you think are funny , but theyre not.
I showed you there financial as reported publicly by them , I don’t control them , so I cant twist them as you suggest , I also wrongly thought that you could do the same for all BSD’s projects and get yourself the reality of the situations. Your sadly not interested in that just in insulting me.
You seem to think I have to provide you with all the BSD financials and determine for you all the known GNU/Linux donation to prove my point , thats wrong hamster , you need to do that on your own , because as you have shown clearly you dont accept any link I give as accurate and accuse me of twisting reality.
I don’t move your insult anymore then I move my responses. Most of the time I skip over things I already answered.
I have not discussed how GNU/Linux is funded , I discuss how GNU/Linux , fund man and support BSD , thats what you have a problem with , because its true and it make you look bad and anger you for some reasons.
I don’t spread any lies at all and about BSD’s at all.
I am not in any hole , hamster , you think I am in one , the reality is I learned heavily from BSD , by learning its history and where it failed.
The license was the main problem , the support and community was another , then came the financing , the hardware availability , the commercialization and finally the lies that hide the real problems.
You point to my other comment as if they are false and lies , they are not , hamster , they are the truth and reality you don’t like to hear and discuss.
You also pointing to the dutch version of Google is not going to be different then the Google.com definition that I listed , none where missing , and I am not wrong as the court said :
The GPL does not spead itself on its own , its does not replicate itself on its own , it does not convert other project or software that come in contact with it. Otherwise the GPL software that are on Apple Mac OS X and Microsoft Windows and BSD’s and Solaris and etc … would all have been switched to the GPL by simply interacting with it. The case was dismissed with prejudice to the accuser.
I always say the truth , I ain’t a BS maker like you *Hamster* , thats why I use my real name and I ain’t a waste of air.
*Hamster* , adult , you know like me, don’t use rodent names when discussing with each others. Your not wasting your time as your time as no value at all.
I don’t manipulate anything Hamster , its not my world either , its reality , I have zero control over it , people who live in it react to it , nobody can control it entirely , when your an adult you will know why.
I am done responding to you in this thread , Hamster , have a nice day.
“No *hamster* , you are the one who is full of BS. Otherwise you would have no problem using your real name with your own comments. ”
For all that you know Hamster could me my real name.
“Just following a simple thread is too difficult for you , you want to discuss other discussion thread where there too I have shown you to be lying and wrong , those discussion are over Hamster. Bringing them back at every discussion and twisting them wont make you win them. ”
No i don’t wanna discuss another thread… i only pointed in that direction to show that you simply cant be trusted.
“You cant be more pathetic then saying I showed only one company when one of my comment in this very thread list several of them. You also bring back my old comment deformed to fit your view , when I showed you the listing you made a fixation on the one at the top , when I discuss the majority. ”
And yet you cant seem to back up your claims up.
“You say you dont insult me but , you must be a real moron not to know that :
“Your full of bs and a complete waste of air”
Is an insult … ”
Since when is saying the truth an insult? Don’t like the truth stop being such a bucket of bs and start acting like an adult. Then people might see you otherwise.
“You ask when you will see my point , the sad answer in your case is you cant , you live in your deformed reality where everything is fine and the only problem to it is me making realistic and truthful comment that disturb how you organized the world inside your mind”
You claim to be living in a real world and yet your need to twist everything to make it fit into your reality. Sorry but thats not how it’s done in the real world. But ofcause most of the gpl zealots don’t live in the real world. They live in a world where if you just say it enough it’s the truth.
“Sorry hamster but you don’t have a sane mind. You dont even use your mind in making your comment , you just write insult you think are funny , but theyre not. ”
I don’t try to be funny…
“I showed you there financial as reported publicly by them , I don’t control them , so I cant twist them as you suggest , I also wrongly thought that you could do the same for all BSD’s projects and get yourself the reality of the situations. Your sadly not interested in that just in insulting me. ”
Why would i do your work for you? If saying that all bsd’s are funded by linux because one company figures on the freebsd donation site isnt twisting things i don’t know what to call it.
“You seem to think I have to provide you with all the BSD financials and determine for you all the known GNU/Linux donation to prove my point , thats wrong hamster , you need to do that on your own , because as you have shown clearly you dont accept any link I give as accurate and accuse me of twisting reality. ”
No it’s not wrong… If you wanna make a claim you better be able to back it up. But you cant because it just aint true. And you know it…
“I don’t move your insult anymore then I move my responses. Most of the time I skip over things I already answered. ”
But you hardly answer anything… you just spew out more bs and then just answer what you think you can without digging you hole even deeper.
“I have not discussed how GNU/Linux is funded , I discuss how GNU/Linux , fund man and support BSD , thats what you have a problem with , because its true and it make you look bad and anger you for some reasons. ”
You don’t discuss anything… you make claims with no links to the real world.
“I don’t spread any lies at all and about BSD’s at all. ”
I doubt you ever said something right about the bsd’s. i have yet to see anything correct from you on osnews anyways.
“I am not in any hole , hamster , you think I am in one , the reality is I learned heavily from BSD , by learning its history and where it failed. ”
It hasne failed from where i’m sitting.
“The license was the main problem , the support and community was another , then came the financing , the hardware availability , the commercialization and finally the lies that hide the real problems. ”
Just because you don’t see the same hype around the bsd’s as you do around linux from the community doesnt mean that the community has failed. I’m somewhat very happy that most of tards like you are found in the linux camp. We surely don’t miss out on much by not having your kind around. And somehow i doubt you actually have followed the history of the bsd’s otherwise you’d know that it’s mainly openbsd that has problems getting funds.
“You point to my other comment as if they are false and lies , they are not , hamster , they are the truth and reality you don’t like to hear and discuss. ”
But they are false. And i proved it and yet you wont see it.
“You also pointing to the dutch version of Google is not going to be different then the Google.com definition that I listed , none where missing , and I am not wrong as the court said : ”
Wrong again…
http://www.google.dk/search?hl=da&q=define%3A+viral&btnG=Google…
http://www.google.com/search?hl=da&q=define%3A+viral&btnG=Googl…
“The GPL does not spead itself on its own , its does not replicate itself on its own , it does not convert other project or software that come in contact with it. Otherwise the GPL software that are on Apple Mac OS X and Microsoft Windows and BSD’s and Solaris and etc … would all have been switched to the GPL by simply interacting with it. The case was dismissed with prejudice to the accuser. ”
And yet it actually fit’s one of the definitions as i allready pointed out before.
“I always say the truth , I ain’t a BS maker like you *Hamster* , thats why I use my real name and I ain’t a waste of air. ”
Well you are actually a waste of air and you are full of bs and to stupid to see your just getting sucked even more down into your own pile of bs.
“*Hamster* , adult , you know like me, don’t use rodent names when discussing with each others. Your not wasting your time as your time as no value at all. ”
I doubt your even old enough to vote… you surely don’t act that way.
“I don’t manipulate anything Hamster , its not my world either , its reality , I have zero control over it , people who live in it react to it , nobody can control it entirely , when your an adult you will know why. ”
Thank god for you not having anyway of controlling people… what a sad world it would be.
“I am done responding to you in this thread , Hamster , have a nice day.”
I see you finely figured out that you were just getting futher down in your own bs. You might wanna find that clue bat now. It can only help you, you know. And thanks for the good laughs i had from your claims. Have a nice day your self.
We’ve been living through a particularly nasty cold snap in Canada for the last week or so, and until reading the article I wasn’t aware of how far the vicious weather extended. But after seeing that Broadcom had representatives at the conference, it would seem that even hell has apparently frozen over.
Nice to see them there, regardless of the deep freeze it brought on. I was firmly under the impression that they had not heard of this linux-thing.
I’ve had great experiences with Broadcom. They maintain the linux kernel driver for their NIC’s, and after some problems (multicast not working correctly) that I reported by email to the maintainer at Broadcom I got a call the next day from a Broadcom engineer!
Long story, but in the end (within 1 day) they came up with a patch for the problem.
Now, I use this example often to tell people what ‘good support’ can mean in the open source world.
It appears to me that FCC may be the biggest problem. That and the apparant use of software to limit the signal strength of the hardware. The FCC do not want people to up the signal strength in a simple way. The chip makers use software because its cheaper to make a global chip then many regional ones. And for fear of being banned from their biggest market, they cant open the source of said software.
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It appears to me that FCC may be the biggest problem. That and the apparant use of software to limit the signal strength of the hardware. The FCC do not want people to up the signal strength in a simple way.
That’s bull. Who started this awful rumor? It’s simply not true.
“The FCC (or any equiv organization) has never attacked an open vendor
The radios cannot go that far out of range
The radios cannot generate enough power to be a risk
But the best part: These chips require firmware upload, so we could
already modify the firmware or the driver
This is an excuse … but not from the vendors … from the users”
http://www.openbsd.org/papers/opencon06-docs/mgp00021.html
Also, read the other slides in that presentation. It covers all of the reasons that vendors give to deny documentation. #1 reason? “Bad Engineering: EVERY rev eng’d chip has turned out to be badly engineered“
thanks…
If such is the case, then the software route is still a poor way of doing it: downloading drivers from the manufacturers other regional website, or changing your timezone or whatever in Windows would be easier than poking around driver settings in linux.
i never said the corps where smart
(“When it comes to troublesome Linux peripherals, WiFi takes the cake.” Never heart of ‘takes the cake’, wonderfull sentence.)
Funny that yesterday during dinner we talked about this. Someone said first thing to do when go to *NIX is choose optimal hardware, and don’t wine when your strange/cheap/bad hardware is not supported…
After many years of using Linux (as part of a wider blend) I cannot name a PCI or USB that I can recommend for an Ubuntu user.
My Belkin (Ralink) PCI cards provide intermittent service and there are some 802.11b cards that work well.
NDISWRAPPER is not part of my recipe for a stable system: shims are ok for applications (e.g. Wine) but not for device drivers IMHO.
Partly because of this a couple of my machines now run OpenBSD but that lacks WPA PSK.
After many years of using Linux (as part of a wider blend) I cannot name a PCI or USB that I can recommend for an Ubuntu user.
Part of the problem with recommending cards (I have found) is when card vendors change chipsets between card versions.
For example I have used numerous Netgear WG511 PCMCIA cards in the past. V1 used and prism chipset and was wonderfully handled by the prism54 driver (with a firmware upgrade). Some V2 cards used the same until they suddenly switched to Marvell chipset which required ndiswrapper around the Windows driver.
I can handle recommending a “WG511 but not above version 2.1” but the card version (as printed on the card itself stayed the same when they changed chipsets!! I know I have two version 2 cards with different chipsets in them.
Have you actually tried NDISWRAPPER? With supported drivers, it is actually quite stable. I used a system that way for years without stability issues.
It’s a pain to deal with (needing an occasional reinstall/reconfig as your system gets upgraded), but it works remarkably well.
1. Know your hardware before you buy it. As many have said, you need to know the chipset of the card – which means you need to know the revision number. I had a DLink card that used 4 different chipsets depending on the version number (I think it was DWL-650). Try to stay with main chipsents like Prism and Atheros, etc. There are several sites that list supported devices – use google!
2. If you already have a card that is not detected, you have two choices. Sometimes twiddling around with files in /etc/pcmcia/ (which helps your system “detect” the device) helps. Otherwise, look at the supported devices from Ndiswrapper.
NOTE: Don’t just use the driver that came with card. NDiswrapper often has a link to a better driver for your card.
3. Use OpenBSD! It really does have the most drivers for a whole host of cards. I sell used Linux/BSD laptops. OpenBSD detects quite a few cards no one else does.