Submitted by On the heels of announcing their plan to offer Ubuntu Linux pre-installed on selected consumer desktops and laptops, Dell will disclose today that it will team up with Novell and Microsoft to distribute Novell’s SUSE Linux Enterprise Server software along with Microsoft’s Windows Server software. As part of the deal, Dell will help Novell and Microsoft make SLES and Windows work together efficiently on Dell’s computer hardware. Rick Becker, a Dell VP, says, “There’s many aspects of open source that delight my customers, [but] they have concerns about software licensing. Those concerns go away when they deploy Microsoft and SLES Linux.”
Microsoft funding and marketing Linux?
Dell now offering two varieties of Linux?
Who could have guessed this could be happening a year ago?
(Then again, who could have guessed that there’d be new Amiga hardware a year ago?)
Microsoft funding and marketing Linux?
Wake up and smell the tactic. Microsoft want you to buy Linux, but ONLY if you refuse to buy Windows, and ONLY from Novell, because amongst Linux companies ONLY Novell has been stupid enough to be duped not once, but twice, into becoming Microsoft’s junior partner.
Edited 2007-05-08 15:09
MS, Dell, Novell, Ubuntu… Who am I supposed to be hating?
Well, Microsoft definitely managed to split the community from the companies. Unfortunately so. And that’s the really bad thing about Novells betrayal.
There is no reason for hating companies. Just avoid those who behave inappropriately.
“MS, Dell, Novell, Ubuntu… Who am I supposed to be hating?”
You could hate them all, but it wouldn’t do you an iota of good.
I can’t see any reason to hate Ubuntu – all they’re doing is competently bringing free software and Linux to a mass audience.
If they carry on the way they’re going you never know this might be the year of the Linux desktop!
The second there is a choice made on licensing rather than what the best tool for the job. I suspect there is something going on.
Ubuntu was a no brainier for the desktop. The decision was not based on any other merits in reality other than its popularity. Although personally I would have loved them to have rolled there own distribution.
I strongly believe that the interest from a server point of view is *will this hardware play nicely with linux hardware*, as administrators have their own views at which is best for them.
Edited 2007-05-07 16:06
The second there is a choice made on licensing rather than what the best tool for the job. I suspect there is something going on.
Cyclops – I find it ironic that you of all the people is putting this statement. You are a well-known GPL propagandist and you have always favoured GPL license over better commercial software.
For many people Windows is best tool for the job but hey i don’t think we would ever see you agree to that. You would never in life say good about Windows or market it even when it is suitable tool for the job because you let your biases cloud your judgement.
Edited 2007-05-07 17:09
“Cyclops – I find it ironic that you of all the people is putting this statement. You are a well-known GPL propagandist and you have always favoured GPL license over better commercial software.
For many people Windows is best tool for the job but hey i don’t think we would ever see you agree to that. You would never in life say good about Windows or market it even when it is suitable tool for the job because you let your biases cloud your judgment. ”
I’m flattered by your post. Although I will be more careful in future with my language. As we can talk for most people. Linux is simply the best *platform* in terms or reliability; cost; safety ; fun etc. The *only* people its not better for are those that refer to themselves as *hardcore gamers*(sic) and those who are heavily reliant on adobe products. of which is a tiny percentage of the available market.
I hope that makes that clear.
Let me tell you for whom windows is the best:
1. Windows is best tool for novice home users because it works in most cases where as Linux (even latest Ubuntu) fails to install on many platforms. Don’t trust me, check their mailing lists. For me it failed with corrupt package message even though i compared the MD5 sum of the download.
2. Windows is best tool for productivity software from Microsoft Word to Visio to the kickass Microsoft Outlook. Yes there are inferior clones like Open Office but Microsoft has the best of breed tools.
3. Windows is great for gamers.
4. Windows has the best development tools like Visual Studio and DDK. It has the well-defined driver development model and best set of debuggers. It is the best platform for software development. And don’t forget documentation.
5. Windows is good for some server scenarios where easy administration is needed.
And if you look at my list above, i think the my list actually agree to market share too. So i don’t know what is your point when you spred the Linux or GPL propaganda.
Edited 2007-05-07 17:49
…the kickass Microsoft Outlook.
Comments like this trip my sarcasm filters and completely invert my interpretation of your arguments.
Comments like this trip my sarcasm filters and completely invert my interpretation of your arguments.
How about supplying an alternative that provides equivalent functionality…
How about supplying an alternative that provides equivalent functionality…
Evolution does a good job as an Outlook alternative or you could just use Outlook 2003 with Crossover Office 6.0.
It’s not even close to providing “equivalent functionality”.
Actually, it’s pretty close – especially considering the use most people make of Outlook.
It’s telling that an old, unsupported mail client like Eudora Light 3.0 has fewer vulnerabilities than Outlook Express.
It’s not even close to providing “equivalent functionality”.
Bull.
Evolution can integrate with Exchange Server just like Outlook and accessed via Web interface. It also has PDA, mobile phone syncing, and dozens of other features.
If you need an enterprise PIM, then I second Evolution, and I’ll add Kontact. Both are pretty nice solutions. Although you can surely find the odd feature here and there that they don’t support, they provide functionality that Outlook has never gotten right, such as the ability to manage large amounts of mail without grinding to a halt.
If you don’t need full-featured calendaring or contact management, I like Thunderbird, and there are many other great free software mail clients. Many people swear by Pine
If you need an enterprise PIM, then I second Evolution, and I’ll add Kontact. Both are pretty nice solutions. Although you can surely find the odd feature here and there that they don’t support, they provide functionality that Outlook has never gotten right, such as the ability to manage large amounts of mail without grinding to a halt.
BS FUD. I’ve got a huge amount of mail in my Outlook inbox and it has never ground to a halt.
I’ve got a huge amount of mail in my Outlook inbox and it has never ground to a halt.
I second that. I have around 500 MB of mail in my outlook including personal folders and it is snappy.
The best feature of Outlook 2007 is the search. You can have 50000 mails in your folders but as soon as you type something, the search results comes almost instantaneously.
The other cool feature is how outlook 2007 has a todo bar on right where it shows your upcoming calender events and tasks. I simply love it. It has made me so much more organized.
Edited 2007-05-07 22:54
Notice how the zealots can’t stand to hear the truth?
It’s not nice to talk about Crazydude0 like that… It’s also off-topic.
Edited 2007-05-08 01:30
As if your post isn’t off-topic, hypocrite.
Sure it is. Did I ever say it wasn’t? But please, keep insulting me, by all means. It only serves to reinforce the notion that you’re more interested in flame wars than rational discourse.
How about replying in a civil manner?
Edited 2007-05-08 02:18
How about replying in a civil manner?
You’re assuming the Windows fanboys are being civil. Hahah.
Let me tell you for whom windows is the best:
1. Windows is best tool for novice home users because it works in most cases where as Linux (even latest Ubuntu) fails to install on many platforms. Don’t trust me, check their mailing lists. For me it failed with corrupt package message even though i compared the MD5 sum of the download.
-> no ordinary end user installs windows himself they buy a pc with windows preinstalled i can say to u that i have installed ubuntu on my mums pc with windows guess what she uses ubuntu she even doesnt care anymore about windows so forget your argument its all about the users choise
2. Windows is best tool for productivity software from Microsoft Word to Visio to the kickass Microsoft Outlook. Yes there are inferior clones like Open Office but Microsoft has the best of breed tools.
-> im not gone argue about the quality and all the features of office etc.. but be honest do u pay for office and do u need the 80% of the tools that are not in openoffice ?? sorry OSS does the job for any home users so forget about number 2
3. Windows is great for gamers.
-> i agree but thats only 5 of 10 years of your life lets say between 15 and 25 and for that we have alternatives that are much better like xbox or ps3
4. Windows has the best development tools like Visual Studio and DDK. It has the well-defined driver development model and best set of debuggers. It is the best platform for software development. And don’t forget documentation.
-> i doubt that there are no good development tools on linux documentation can be a pain in the ass true no one beats the ms documentation
5. Windows is good for some server scenarios where easy administration is needed.
-> the only server that i can think of is SMB for companys where u have 10 or 20 ppl working for the rest i wouldnt recomend it.
And if you look at my list above, i think the my list actually agree to market share too. So i don’t know what is your point when you spred the Linux or GPL propaganda.
-> i think i have shorten your list somehow i sell pc’s and i can tell u most ppl just buy computers and are not so happy with windows but just dont know about linux. when they see my ubuntu desktop they all look up and ask me what it is once i explain them and show them most of them go like oooh aaah wooouw thats easy that looks good and to be honest i dont like selling pc’s with ubuntu because those customers are the customers that never return for a reinstallation of there pc for all the others once a year they all come back with spyware viruses f–ked up registry’s etc …
just my opinion
i think i have shorten your list somehow i sell pc’s and i can tell u most ppl just buy computers and are not so happy with windows but just dont know about linux. when they see my ubuntu desktop they all look up and ask me what it is once i explain them and show them most of them go like oooh aaah wooouw thats easy that looks good and to be honest i dont like selling pc’s with ubuntu because those customers are the customers that never return for a reinstallation of there pc for all the others once a year they all come back with spyware viruses f–ked up registry’s etc …
I take exception to this. I have never had viruses or registry screwup. Now i have indeed had configuration file screwup in Linux. I had to deal with configuring X correctly on my own. I mean come on how many years will it take for someone to fix X setup?
Now if you think teaching everyone to use sudo is going to make life easy for them then well go-ahead and assume that. I am sure as soon as Ubuntu becomes popular there will be spyware that says, to win your 1000$ reward run “sudo won1000” and you know the story after that:)
Edited 2007-05-07 18:27
I take exception to this. I have never had viruses or registry screwup.
You know you can do more with your Windows computer than just boot to the desktop. You might try actually using it,, then you wouldn’t make silly statements like this. It may be that you spend a large amount of time doing system maintainence.
tpaws – You know you can do more with your Windows computer than just boot to the desktop. You might try actually using it,, then you wouldn’t make silly statements like this. It may be that you spend a large amount of time doing system maintainence.
Obviously you get modded up on this comment because we know how honest MS haters or GPL fanboys are. You can abuse others and still get modded up. But who cares…truth doesn’t change by modding up or down…right?
Now to answer your question on computer usage:
I do device driver development for living. Now what is your qualification sir?
Yes i don’t use Kazza if that is what your primary usage. But in that case, you installed spyware by yourself and no OS can help you there.
Btw feel free to discuss memory management or other kernel topics with me if interested in knowing more about me…
Edited 2007-05-07 22:25
How did he abuse you, exactly?
In any case, you shoudn’t be that over-sensitive when you yourself engage in ad hominem attacks on others.
I had a NES when I was 5, and the last thing they’ll pull out of my cold, dead corpse at the nursing home is the PS12 controller. Video games aren’t just a ‘kid thing’; video games have notably changed the way the average person entertains themselves.
From a business standpoint, saying an OS has no significant games is a notable flaw. It’s like saying the OS doesn’t have software for web serving, standard office tasks, multimedia playback, or Internet browsing: it’s a major hole in what that OS can do compared to other OSs.
…and yet the two personal examples you give are about *consoles*, not PCs.
Everyone who follows the gaming industry knows that, with a few exceptions (most of which, like WoW, can run on Linux), consoles are now where it’s at. The PC gaming scene (i.e. the Windows gaming scene) has been moribund for years, representing only a small part of the market (to the order of 10%, if one excludes casual games such as Bejeweled, Minesweeper, etc.).
Most PC users don’t play games beyond casual games, and Linux has tons of these. Serious gamers can still dual-boot (which is actually a plus in terms of productivity, since you’re less likely to stop working and start playing if you have to reboot).
So, with all these things considered, the fact that there are few games for Linux is not that significant, since Windows itself has few games when compared to games consoles, and Linux has an excellent collection of casual games. For hardcore gamers, dual-booting is a good option.
Well said.
We all remember the days when validating the purchase of a computer consisted of “But Dad, I can type up those book reports with it”. Of course the actual reason was playing video games like Leisure Suit Larry with your friends.
Linux is cool with me, but it will be nothing more than a neat toy to screw around with until I get some decent games to play on it…..and I’m 33 years old. Also, no thanks, you can keep your over-priced consoles….both of them.
I realize Linux gaming is “chicken and egg” syndrome, but I would rather see the push to further the evolution of apps like Wine as opposed to wasting ginormous amounts of time making some flavor of the month Linux distro run on the lousy PS3.
But that, of course, is my opinion.
Ah, fond memories indeed (except in my time it was Wizardry on the Apple ][…)
I hope you realize the delicious irony in that statement.
I don’t see how this is relevant. I’m 37 myself, and a computer geek/gamer since the age of 8 (and now video game designer by trade). There’s no particular age for gaming anymore. The Nintendo Wii is apparently very popular among the grandparents…(bowling and golf, what’s not to love!
The Wii is not overpriced, by any measure. As for the other two…they are expensive, but not much more than a top-tier video card. And they have much more games not available on PCs than the other way around. The PC gaming market is increasingly marginalized. Consoles rule the industry…some people may not like it, but that’s the state of affairs right now.
Yes and no. It’s not a zero-sum game. The people who work on making a Linux distro run on a PS3 (or who try to make it run on an xbox360 or Wii) are not the same who work on improving Wine, and there’s no indication that they would work on the latter if they didn’t spend their time doing the former (most likely, they wouldn’t, since it’s not necessarily the same expertise).
Of course, DirectX 10 compatibility is the next big goal of Wine-type development, but the problem is that DirectX is a moving target. If you’re a real Windows gamer, then dual-booting is a better option (in my view). Of course, like the majority of gamers out there, I’ve moved on to consoles, and use my computers to do work (and waste time on sites like these…). But I still support Wine and similar efforts (morally and financially). Any progress on that front is good for Linux, though to me it is not a matter of necessity.
And you are quite entitled to it.
Edited 2007-05-08 03:28
As seriously off-topic of this is getting. I suspect very strongly that commercial cutting edge gaming does not work well on linux.It is not a chicken and an egg situation.
Gaming is a different market to that of the server; desktop; office.
Many of the advantages of Open-source do not exist in gaming. You cannot sell an open source game and supply a service; technical support etc. etc. The shelf life of a cutting edge game is days/weeks and not much longer, and yet requires a large dedicated team, many months of work for a relatively short gaming experience.
Now that said I am surprised that no company with a large back catalog of games has not sold all there back-catalog of games with open source engines and loose CC content. Simply to increase shelf life; free exposure; higher profit margin in an almost empty market. You can see how well the consoles are doing selling back catalogs for their titles.
On a side not. The idea of computers for education is dated concept and has been for a long time. My biggest disappointment is that the PS3 wasn’t pushed with its educational benefits. It is the one console open/powerful enough to be used as just that.
Unfortunately it only includes minimal support for Linux. Instead its being sold as a HD Movie/Game machine after saying it was a supercomputer. Even I could see how the could package it with a TV of 1366x7whatever resolution keyboard and mouse to pack kids off to collage with ideal for a small dorm room, and make the package cheap. Something their competitors couldn’t do and push their own agendas.
Edited 2007-05-08 05:04
You really want to claim that “novice home users” install the operating system manually? On barebones systems without pre-installed one?
Yes, hopefully. Would be quite puzzling if a different platform would be running Microsoft’s software better than their own, wouldn’t it?
Debatable. I think it really depends what kind of software one is talking about, what platform it is going to be deployed on and what languages one is going to use.
Yes people have to many times reinstall. I know a friend who is non-technical user. He had to install his OS because his hard-disk corrupted data on power failure.
And see the ubuntu installation related fun here:
http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=140&order=desc
Given that the number of ubuntu users are small, this is a pretty big list of weird failures. At least windows Windows XP i have never had any failures in last 5 years.
You mean they use the recovery media, which basically is a automated restore of the factory defaults.
Without such a recovery steps “novice home users” would be in big trouble.
I don’t see how it could matter which operating system would be on those disks, i.e. why you think it would be harder to do a Linux recovery than a Windows recovery
Yeah, I imagine that’s why friends and family call me when they want to reinstall Windows – it’s so simple!
Hey, it’s quick, too! When I had to reinstall Vista on the machine I bought for my ex’s parents, it only took three hours! Woohoo! And that’s just for the system. That’s much better than the 30-45 minutes it takes to install Ubuntu and a boatload of productivity software, games and accessories!
(Yes, I’m being sarcastic…)
See my post above: only people who have problems post on forums. Linking to a few posts here and there means nothing. I myself have installed Feisty on three PCs at home, and all three installs (including a laptop) went without a hitch – you didn’t see me log on to the forum to claim success…
The list of problems is still infinitesimal when compared to the total number of Ubuntu users.
And I’ve never had any failures with Linux over the past 5 years. What can we conclude from this? I’ll let you think about it.
Linux installers are not perfect, and I’ll admit they’ve given me trouble. The Ubuntu livecd misconfigures my ati x850PE and crashes every time… but the XP installer has not been that much nicer to me. How many “average users” would ignore/not understand the “Press F6 to install 3rd party SATA/RAID controller”, and the fact that it needs to be on a floppy, only to have the installer boot for 5 mins and scream that you have no hard drives? Basically, what it boils down to is OS installs are not for novice users…period.
Agreed…at least with Ubuntu you get the option of trying the alternate install CD. But you’re right, for ordinary users, pre-installed (and configured) is the way to go!
And here is a funny post on Ubuntu installation forum:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=435632
how do i revert back to XP after ubuntu?
———————————————————————- ———-
I put ubuntu edgyeft on my computer because i had an illegal copy of xp. Anyway ive tried everything to get my wireless adapter to work with ubuntu but have failed. I would like to go back to windows xp now. any tips on how i do it? i think i need to get rid of grub or something first? Please Help! Thanks in advance
Notice, dude, how “tolerant” the Linux advocates are around here? If you say _anything_ which conflicts with their religious dogma, you’re modded down. They simply can’t stand reading factual information which destroys their illusions of superior quality. It’s sad, truly sad, when people delude themselves.
Tomcat,
Thats not the problem. The problem is you fail to acknowledge all the available software options on Linux/Unix pior to badmouthing it.
In many cases, 3rd party plugins fullfill the missing missing features in popular FOSS software. If not, perhaps other FOSS or commercial products have the desired functionality.
Edited 2007-05-07 20:03
Thats not the problem. The problem is you fail to acknowledge all the available software options on Linux/Unix pior to badmouthing it.
In many cases, 3rd party plugins fullfill the missing missing features in popular FOSS software. If not, perhaps other FOSS or commercial products have the desired functionality.
And this is precisely the reason why Linux has such difficulty gaining a foothold on the desktop: Poor integration. I don’t care about whether a plug-in exists somewhere out on the Web. It has to be preinstalled on a machine in order to be useful.
The modding down isn’t due to any dogmatic reaction, but rather because the modded down posts (such as the one I’m responding to right now) are off-topic flamebait.
Notice, dude, how “tolerant” the Linux advocates are around here? If you say _anything_ which conflicts with their religious dogma, you’re modded down.
Notice, dude, how “tolerant” the Windows fanboys are around here? If you say _anything_which conflicts with their religious dogma, you’re bombarded by insulting balderdash which usuallycontains the same unimaginative mixture or combination of “religio[ous,ion]”, “dogma”, “socialist,” “communist, ” “fanatic” etc. Actions speak louder than words, and sometimes it’s easier and more telling to mod rubbish down than to respond to it point by point.
They simply can’t stand reading factual information which destroys their illusions of superior quality.
Sources of said “factual information” being people like you and NotParker, I presume.
It’s sad, truly sad, when people delude themselves.
Indeed.
“1. Windows is best tool for novice home users because it works in most cases where as Linux (even latest Ubuntu) fails to install on many platforms. Don’t trust me, check their mailing lists. For me it failed with corrupt package message even though i compared the MD5 sum of the download.”
This is off-topic in the instance of a Dell providing pre-installed software. Its also not true since the Vista platform which has had major problems with graphics and. I actually think that the Ubuntu installer is not very good. I like the gparted tool, but still do not have confidence in it.
“2. Windows is best tool for productivity software from Microsoft Word to Visio to the kickass Microsoft Outlook. Yes there are inferior clones like Open Office but Microsoft has the best of breed tools.”
I’m very careful with the word best. You have moved from Vista to Microsoft Office please make your mind up. Microsoft Office is an excellent office package if you get it for free, but too expensive otherwise. Its major failing are open formats(more important than the licence); PDF output; price. Please do not try to argue these make you more productive its simply not true. A letter simply takes the same time to write. The most productive is the Old DOS based Wordperfect. OpenOffice is simply the better product.
“3. Windows is great for gamers.”
Vista is poor for gamers; even on Microsoft platform is plauged with slow graphics. In some cases up to 40% slower. Support is poor for old games. A poor substitute for console gaming, and an expensive option to boot. The exception being WOW. What both Linux and Vista have in droves is good casual gaming which I don’t think gets as much attention as it should. Remember Hardcore Gaming is a small market; Windows gaming is a smaller market. If you don’t believe me look at how Intel onboard graphics is still the leading graphics card.
“4. Windows has the best development tools like Visual Studio and DDK. It has the well-defined driver development model and best set of debuggers. It is the best platform for software development. And don’t forget documentation.”
And alternatives exist like eclipse as well as great tools that go with it. I think cross-platform is the best to develop for and using the open source model. Documentation exists in droves. A quick look in *any* bookstore and you will see a Linux section as large as the windows. Of course we are talking small projects for large projects its…interesting. Thats ignoring resources like those of Freenode.
“5. Windows is good for some server scenarios where easy administration is needed.”
Vista Server is an untied platform we will see how it performs when it comes out. I’m sure it will be pretty good.
I do find it funny that you suggest a Vista(non crippled)+Office+Visual Studio+Visio a solution which costs in the region of $3000 for that price I could get a 24″ screen; dual core processor; 4GB memory; 1TB of storage; A blu-ray drive and a PS3.
The Linux platform has *lots* of imperfections…and in lots of unexpected areas but these aren’t them. It has poor application support in some critical areas, but it does have class A products like MySQL; MPlayer; K3B; Apache etc etc and thats ignoring the choice on Linux when it comes to things like desktop ; File system.
But seriously your post is little to do with my love of GPL or the topic in hand.
but like I say for most people that surf; write a few letters; chat; access e-mail and nothing else. Its simply *the* solution.
For people who chat – there is not a very good chat client with voice and webcam support in Linux. None of the official clients from major vendors is supported on Linux.
But yes for others i.e. if you just surf web and wrie emails, i think it is good enough to use Linux once you get it installed (or if it comes preinstalled).
However when you or anyone market Linux please don’t forget to honestly list it’s shortcomings. Like hey if you use linux make sure you don’t file your tax returns using turbotax because it doesn’t work. Do you really want an unhappy pi$$ed off person in the month of April? I for sure don’t.
@CrazyDude0
Off-topic
There are shortcomings in Linux+Applications. The ones for me personally would be a better *graphical* ftp client. I’m currently using cvs gftp which is *good enough* and I know filezilla is going cross platform.
The other obvious shortcoming that has been the disgrace of Linux for forever has been xorg.conf. Which alegidly will be fixed in the next 3 months with xorg 7.3.
The weak spots in hardware support 3D. I use the open source R300 driver which is good and gets better all the time mesa 6.3 solved many niggles, and it did have niggles. I have no experience of closed source drivers.
People seem to have trouble with wireless drivers, I have looked , open source supported wireless can be had for next to nothing, and finding a working wireless card is a lot easier that delving though the nightmare that non-wireless standards seem to have brought with them.
The only applications I’ve *never* found an equivalent that I’ve not been 100% happy with are virtualdub; infraview; xnews oddly all freeware or open source. They have equivelents klibido; avidemux2; and well eog but they arn’t the same. I oddly haven’t missed *any* microsoft products.
For the Desktop, and I use XFCE the most basic of the three desktops it has one missing function that I would like and thats loop selection on the desktop, and thats going to be gone the next release.
Installation is easier on Linux apart from one thing it has the added complication of keeping Windows around. Btw I reasently tried to keep a windows98 partition and windows XP partition and boot both. I had to give up. Keeping a *legal* OEM you have to be pretty good. Microsoft also suffers from activation. Which is *awful*. Seriously its awful. The other problem with the Microsoft platform that is *never* mentioned and I don’t know why is its rubbish. Seriously awful if you want the latest and greatest Linux you just download the latest Distro and off you go; Installing your updates is a breeze. Now even ignoring hard drive OEM installs or backup installs. Windows Disks get 5 years old, Simply installing one makes your computer *vulnerable* to attack, and they don’t contain any drivers for your hardware, or not current ones. The same will be true of Vista disks well now. Do not even *begin* to compare the experience of installing Windows its a *nightmare*, and the licensing conditions are frightening.
The reality of windows if the *biggest* problem is not the spyware or viruses becuase I actually believe that becuase of the scale of the problem they have got to the stage where it is pretty simple to fix, albeit at the cost of CPU; Time and effort, if you can live with the fact your computer has been compromised and most are. I actually always liked defragging. I find is maintenance for drivers; windows update; individual applications which is a never ending cycle. package management for all its faults have made maintaining a system a doddle after its been set up. It doesn’t end there Windows doesn’t have standards. I actually edit the menu’s on windows. A problem thats been solved…and recently after xfree86’s fork, but I can actually find things on Linux and they are under sensible names.
Windows always *feels* dated; Vista is a few months Xorg 7.2 has been released 2 versions of the kernel have been released my desktop has seen update. Beryl has seen 2 updates. The kernel will see at least 8 updates. X.org 4 Ubuntu and Gnome 4 before the next version on Windows is delayed.
Windows support is expensive. I’m not talking consulting professionals although I’m led to believe a call to Microsoft is expensive, but you don’t have the same kind of support from freenode; to Distro forums; to User groups. I’m actually a little disappointed that I didn’t get involved in user groups when I started Linux, but I didn’t know then what I know now.
I’d miss the fact that I get *new* stuff all the time, seriously a new release of the kernel every 3 months 6 months between X releases and the desktop…and 100’s of other smaller packages that I wouldn’t even look to see whether they had been updated or not, and I can trust them with an update, and being connected to my computer becuase I choose to do so.
I’d miss applications I’ve grown to love MythTV; Mplayer and smaller ones like K3B and Comix. Media Center on Vista appeals to me.
I’ve actually not mentioned cost, but I have got a 2 new 500gb hard drives and anew graphics card for machine in the past 6 months. I’d probably be looking for a second hard XP machine, and there are some bargains to be had, if I went down the Microsoft route.
Notice I’ve not talked about things like DRM or WGA or other nasties because I think if you use a Microsoft Platform you get used to being treated like a second class citizen.but I’d miss the fact that I feel in control, and that is priceless.
You have completely changed the topic now.
Your first complaint is virus and spyware:
1. I run XP as a Limited User and i have never had even a single Virus or Spyware on my ssytem. Yes i don’t install Kazza or other file sharing stuff on my system as well.
2. You say the support from MS is expensive. Actually i have found more forums with help regarding Windows than Linux. When my Ubuntu installation failed with corrupt package error message, my message was not even replied once on Ubuntu alias (why? Because there were 100s of other installation issues related messages pending). I eventually fixed that by installing previous version Ubuntu and then upgrading to the latest. So no I don’t agree that there is a lot of support in Linux world.
I prefer Windows over Linux because it is more stable for me and it has all the applications in the world i need ever including vim
Yes i pay a little bit money for it but it is far more worth than wasting my time on installing ubuntu.
Edited 2007-05-07 22:35
Based on one occurence? After you posted a single request in a busy thread? Yeah, that’s showing good faith…
Can you link to the actual post, please? I’d be curious to read it…if you had the same attitude as you regularly display on OSAlert, then it’s no surprise no one responded to you.
Here you go Archiesteel:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=261974&highlight=corrupt+p…
Well, I stand corrected. You *were* very civil and polite. Had I read your comment then, I would have suggested that you use the “Verify CD” option when you boot the LiveCD, to make sure that it wasn’t damaged. Did the MD5 sums match?
That said, I did a search on Ubuntuforums.org for “corrupt libc package” and got very few results (only four threads), which seems to indicate that very few people experienced this. That would seem to suggest that there was an issue with the particular ISOs you downloaded. Again, a “Verify CD” might have indicated damage.
Yes the MD5 sum did match. When it failed for me, there was no options left for me. I waited in forum for 2-3 days but no reply and no help.
I as a software engineer made it work. But i was thinking from a layman point of view and what they would do in this case.
Honestly in last 5 years not even one XP or 2K3 or Vista installation has failed on me.
Well, considering that this was apparently a fluke, it’s not really a matter of concern to me.
So to you one user not able to install an OS is a fluke? Now go and read Ubuntu forum again and see how many are having problems due to different issues. You ignore one bug, you ignore all.
Thank God Microsoft doesn’t think like that. At least they are listening and trying to improve unlike the “we are superior” attitude of Linux camp.
“Thank God Microsoft doesn’t think like that. At least they are listening and trying to improve unlike the “we are superior” attitude of Linux camp.”
If they are trying to improve Vista, they have MUCH work to do:
http://www.bloggingstocks.com/2007/05/07/windows-vista-demo-crashes…
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=436360&highlight=panic
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=412125&highlight=crash
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=420610&highlight=crash
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=436360&highlight=panic
Did you even read the link you provided? The person booted, there was a problem, then he rebooted again and it was fine. It doesn’t seem as if the problem has reoccured after that.
Yeah, big bug. (Yawn.)
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=412125&highlight=crash
I actually know that thread, because I recently ran into a problem similar to what those people were experiencing on my roommate’s PC, and was looking for clues on how to fix it.
After a lot of searching I finally found the problem. There was a problem with one of the memory slot connectors on the motherboard. Changing the placement of the memory chips solved it. We also figure out that this was probably what was causing problems in Windows as well, since he told me then he had started getting instability in Windows not long after he had added memory to his machine. To which I replied something to the effect of: “now you tell me? Sheesh!”
Thanks for putting up that link, I’m actually going to post a message there later, in case it helps some of the people who are having these types of freeze.
Thanks also for posting a thread where quite a few people found answers to their problems. It proves the forums are working – users helping users, it’s a beautiful thing.
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=420610&highlight=crash
Wow, another winner! On the very last message in that thread, the person who had originally posted the issue says that it was a bad memory chip.
It’s amazing how deep you dug that hole for yourself. You should go get some sleep instead of continuing this litany of ineffective, off-topic flamebaiting. You’re obviously not in the zone tonight.
Edited 2007-05-08 01:31
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=436360&highlight=panic
Did you even read the link you provided? The person booted, there was a problem, then he rebooted again and it was fine. It doesn’t seem as if the problem has reoccured after that.
This was funny. So intermittent panic doesn’t matter, right? Oh well because it didn’t panic for 2 times, it is ok to ignore the problem. LMFAO.
Archiesteel after you write posts like this really boy i can’t even laugh at you. You are making a joke of yourself here.
After a lot of searching I finally found the problem. There was a problem with one of the memory slot connectors on the motherboard
This was the worst defence and lamest one that i have seen in long time. So yours was a hardware problem. So now you say everyone is having a hardware problem? Have you ever done kernel level development? Did you hook up a kernel debugger and analyzed it to prove it is hardware problem and not some hidden memory corruption bug? Did you assume that everyone who is hitting this bug has a faulty hardware? At least ask them to generate a kernel memory dump and analyze it first.
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=420610&highlight=crash
Wow, another winner! On the very last message in that thread, the person who had originally posted the issue says that it was a bad memory chip.
It’s amazing how deep you dug that hole for yourself. You should go get some sleep instead of continuing this litany of ineffective, off-topic flamebaiting. You’re obviously not in the zone tonight.
Again funny how linux users solve their problem. Going from 1.2Gb to 512MB and problem solved. How the hell you know it is bad hardware without analysis in a kernel debugger. Changing the system memory can *potentially* hide memory management or memory corruption bugs.
Edited 2007-05-08 02:27
It’s not “intermittent” when it only happens once. So far this is a one-time incident. He rebooted and it worked. I’ve had that kind of weirdness happen to me in Windows too, by the way – such flukes are hardly the province of a single OS.
But let me ask you a question, you who claim to be a programmer (a claim that seems less credible every time you make a post). How do you fix a bug that only happens once?
If the problem repeats itself, then you can try to fix it. That seems simple enough, no?
This feeble attack, along with the string of straw men you keep trying to prop up, smacks of desperation. This is getting kind of pathetic, actually.
Let’s see, here are my responses to yet another failed strawman argument on your part: no, no, no and no.
Understand me, son: I’ve been assembling PCs for, what, almost twenty years now. I know for a fact that hardware sometimes fail. It has failed me numerous times on Windows (that particular bug I mentioned also affected the Windows install, by the way), and it has failed me numerous times with other OSes as well.
You don’t need a kernel dump to know that a piece of hardware is causing the problem. If you change the part, or simply place it in a different slot, and then it works, then that’s a *pretty good* indication that the issue was hardware-related.
I assume that the user in question will buy a non-faulty chip and get on with his life.
Yeah, you know what, you should try doing PC maintenance once in a while. You’d learn a thing or two.
In my case, I didn’t change the chips, but simply avoid the faulty memory slot. You’re welcome to work on solving those *potential* memory bugs, I’m happy when everything “just works”. You know, like everything does on the three Ubuntu computers I have on my LAN.
Linux is getting better everyday, while Windows will continue to degenerate:
http://www.linuxjournal.com/node/1000176
http://www.mypcpros.com/computer-blog/2007/5/1/microsofts-new-valid…
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20070422083715451
In your case, it would appear to be so, since there virtually no other reports of that issue. You’re a programmer, you must appreciate logic, right? Considering the large amount of postings on the forum, it’s logical to assume that if a particular issue has only been reported once or twice, it’s a fluke. If it’s true, that is. Only you know that, of course. I’ll assume it is.
So yeah, that’s most likely a fluke or bad cd.
Oh, I visit the forum, I know there are still some annoying bugs. All software has bugs. However, consider that people who post on forums do so when things don’t work. Those for whom it *does* work, however, don’t post. And judging from the amount of Ubuntu installs out there, and my own experience, it generally does work.
I made this point earlier and you did not even try to refute it. I had assumed that you had conceded it. Then again you seem more interested in off-topic flamebaiting than logical debate.
Are you sure you’re a programmer? Because you seem to really enjoy making illogical statements. You don’t ignore *all* bugs when you don’t fix one. Don’t be ridiculous.
From the date on your post, I imagine you were trying to upgrade to Edgy. Have you tried Feisty? I bet you you won’t get the same issue. Bugs happen, they get fixed. That’s the reality of software development. As a self-proclaimed programmer, I’m sure you’re aware of that fact.
Yes, because Microsoft software never has bugs.
Again with a fallacious statment. Linux does improve, and the devs do listen. There is *more* direct interaction between users of F/OSS and those who develop it than between Microsoft and those who use its software. That’s why Linux, and many other FOSS projects (such as KDE), evolves more rapidly than Windows, incidentally.
@CrazyDude0
Off-topic
1) Why should you not try and install it yourself, clearly there are a lot of people here who have. They are the ones allegedly modding you down out of malice.
2) The best IMO chat client that exists is cross platform and supports multiple IM networks. http://developer.pidgin.im/wiki.
3) Never heard of TurboTax filled in my tax online.
4) I did a search for photoshop sales. I unfortunately couldn’t find one. I would be very surprised if it was purchased by 1% of computer users out there. An even smaller percentage than that are able to use its functionally enough to not use a replacement product on Linux, and amazed if most of the use photoshop professionally are not using already an alternative platform than Vista.
5) Wow I remember when Word was configured a clone of wordperfect. Although I’m happy for you to point out a single feature not available in OpenOffice that is going to be used by 99% of users.
6) The correct statement would be Native Linux Commercial Gaming has slim pickings, and it does. Linux offers even less than Vista for those prepared to pay for dual graphic card setups. I strongly suspect that situation will not change soon. I will not discuss Wine becuase I’ve never used it. Commercial games that are available often follow there Windows counterparts by several months and aren’t available at the bargain basement prices that they should be.
The arguments against this are for casual gaming is very strong on Linux. Hardcore gaming has moved to consoles. Continual incremental improvements to the games on the platform. Linux gaming even has its own scene.
http://www.happypenguin.org/
http://freegamer.blogspot.com/
The reality is gaming is healthy on Linux cutting edge commercial gaming on Linux is non existant.
Although the money save on your *rig* twinned with the cost of software would enable you to buy a PS3 and a sizable collection of games with the guarantee. That these wont run 40% slower or not at all becuase you moved to an updated(sic) version of your OS
I can’t be less impressed with a todo list on your calender. It seems like an obvious feature I’ll be honest you know of equivalents on the Linus platform. This is a package only available in the super expensive version of Office. I’ll be honest and say I’ve never used one, not a clue, becuase the design sucks. I have used outlook becuase express was dangerous. In Offices I have worked very few use all but the minimum of its functionality. I think its the worst sort of package available.
I think this sort of application on Linux or windows is a plain bad idea. Did we learn nothing from Firefox being a browser rather than a suite. I *know* some people like that style, but most don’t. I know its for the select few that only use calender and email and thats it, so why not build something better instead. Web 2.0(sic) is going to own this space quite soon, and I think this is a step back.
Outlook highlights a particular problem with the Windows platform shortcuts. They had the opportunity to kill this problem, with the sidebar using it as the *only* shotcut, but instead decided to use it for *widgets*(sic), anyone who says Microsoft is interested in productivity(sic), need only look at this.
Now if you want to talk about finding stuff. I still cannot get over the Dog in XP or the fact I have to click again from a list of options to find a file.. Its so hard to find anything on XP…they had to improve the search.
1) If only Virus and spyware was spread by filesharing. Sadly that is not the case.
There are no comprehensive accounts of the number of virus infections
worldwide, but we can make some educated guesses. The numbers are
doubtless large…a single virus can infect upwards of 10 million
users around the world!
According to the latest FBI statistics on cybercrime, 52% of computer
users (mostly from the business community) experienced some sort of
unathorized use or intrusion of their computer systems (down from a
high of 70% of users in 2000).
Of those unauthorized uses, 65% were virus attacks (a survey by
Microsoft found similar, but somewhat higher, numbers of computer
intrusions).
In other words, out of 1,000 computers, about 520 were subject to some
sort of unauthorized use or attack.
Out of those 520 computers, 65% of them were infected by viruses.
This amounts to 338 computers out of every 1,000.
Put another way, about 33.8%, or roughly a third, of all computers are
victims of virus attacks each year.
With our estimate of 500 million computers in the world, we can
calculate that there are [ 500 million * 0.338 ] =
169 million computers
The numbers speak for themselves
2) Troubleshooting on Linux is easier on Linux than windows its support network is simply there. If your require greater support you can actually pay for it.
Although I did find your statement about a little bit more money the most interesting.
Could you please add up the cost of Vista(non crippled)+Office(with outlook)+photoshop+turbotax+Visual Studio(non crippled)…and then double it for places other than North America to have this inferior set-up. I could buy a 36″ HD TV for that and have change left over for a Linux computer. Seriously show me the figures. A kernel developer like you should have no problem with that maths.
BTW you wouldn’t want to point out what *any* of these have to do with the topic in hand.
Edited 2007-05-08 01:23
Cyclops – First you write very long posts so i lose interest in reading all.
Second you doesn’t understand other at all and write long posts without understanding.
Have you used Outlook 2007? I wasn’t talking about Vista sidebar. Just once look at Outlook 2007 interface and you will know.
http://www.colindiponio.com/images_wp/outlook2007vid.JPG
http://www.microsoft.com/uk/atwork/images/office2007/outlook2007_bc…
Now compare this to Evolution:
http://hp.cl.no/dist/evolution-mail-hpaned.png
I am sure OSS will catch up to (ahem…steal) Outlook’s features and UI
Edited 2007-05-08 02:51
@CrazyDude0
Off-topic
=========
I’m sorry you didn’t read my post it was a reply to you *intentionally* in one post so people could skip over it. It was a reply to 3 of your posts. If your intention in not to discuss, but to disrupt others discussion perhaps you are needed elsewhere.
If you can read this post. My problem is exactly that. I’m counting 3 panes.
The *entire* todo should only IMO appear in the Vista sidebar.
The *entire* menu on the left hand side is shocking. These should appear as quicklaunch buttons on the toolbar. Because they are *separate* applications.
Outlook by its very nature is a desktop *within* a desktop. I pointed out how they could have used one of the selling points of Vista more effectively leaving a more uncluttered desktop more productive desktop.
Outlook 2007 is a throwback to days of features over functionality use and well everything else. Its hard to get rig of because people have got used to it.
Like I said Its so 95, its not Web(2.0) its not even Vista. Its a shocking application.
Nobody has to steal(sic) anything here. Google not Linux or any Outlook clone is going to take this market from Microsoft. Outlook 2007 shows how slow Microsoft is at changing with the times.
Edited 2007-05-08 03:21
Off-topic
=========
I notice that in a thread about Linux being installed by the manufacturer on servers this thread has become about a couple of users insulting linux users , and making up lies about what Linux can and cannot do when *lots* here use it.
Edited 2007-05-08 01:31
Why is there so much anger in OSS community that you modded down my comment below? I don’t think it matches any of the reason listed on osnews to mod it down. So did you lie when you modded me down?
For people who chat – there is not a very good chat client with voice and webcam support in Linux. None of the official clients from major vendors is supported on Linux.
But yes for others i.e. if you just surf web and wrie emails, i think it is good enough to use Linux once you get it installed (or if it comes preinstalled).
However when you or anyone market Linux please don’t forget to honestly list it’s shortcomings. Like hey if you use linux make sure you don’t file your tax returns using turbotax because it doesn’t work. Do you really want an unhappy pi$$ed off person in the month of April? I for sure don’t.
So if i have to convince someone to use Linux, this is what i will tell them upfront.
1. You shall never try to install Linux yourself.
2. A lot of the chat clients don’t work on Linux and neither does webcam works properly.
3. TurboTax does not work.
4. Adobe photoshop does not work.
5. Office productivity software are inferior clones and bloated as well.
6. Your games would not work.
Edited 2007-05-07 22:52
Stop making off-topic posts, and you’ll stop being modded down.
If you need a reminder, the topic of the article is Dell’s announcement that it will team up with Novell and Microsoft to distribute Novell’s SUSE Linux Enterprise Server software along with Microsoft’s Windows Server software. The topic is *not* whether Linux is a good Desktop OS or not, or whether Tax Software runs on it.
There’s an easy solution, btw, for all such specialty software that only runs on Windows: it’s called virtualization. That’s what I did this year for taxes. Also, it is now usually possible to do your taxes on the Web, at the tax software maker’s web site.
Now, please try to stay on topic, and tone down the flamebaiting rhetoric. Thanks.
Webcam works in Kopete and aMSN.
Tax, use online or virtualize Windows.
Office, run wine or virtualize.
Games, cedega or wine. But that’s a small segment of the market
Applications are a chicken-egg marketshare problem.
BTW the post from Ubuntuforums about the person who couldn’t get her wireless working is from an old release of Ubuntu. And you can’t blame Linux when the vendors don’t even provide drivers themselves and people hav eto reverse engineer– i.e., Broadcom. Use Intel, Ralink, and be happy.
1. Windows is best tool for novice home users because it works in most cases where as Linux (even latest Ubuntu) fails to install on many platforms. Don’t trust me, check their mailing lists. For me it failed with corrupt package message even though i compared the MD5 sum of the download.
Ubuntu does not represent the best of Linux. It’s the most popular but not the easiest, safest or the most stable. Canonical just managed to lure mass of people with their previous Free CD offerings.
2. Windows is best tool for productivity software from Microsoft Word to Visio to the kickass Microsoft Outlook. Yes there are inferior clones like Open Office but Microsoft has the best of breed tools.
And you think OpenOffice is the only office solution for Linux? Think again. There are several including some commercial ones like SoftMaker Office, Star Office and online ones like ThinkFree.
3. Windows is great for gamers.
Yep and its not too bad in Linux either with Cedega 6.0, Wine 0.9.36, and Crossover Office 6. Not to mention good at running plain Windows 32 apps.
Notice I didn’t say perfect.
4. Windows has the best development tools like Visual Studio and DDK. It has the well-defined driver development model and best set of debuggers. It is the best platform for software development. And don’t forget documentation.
I’m not a developer but Linux has several dozen IDEs, including Eclipse. MonoDevelop is getting better too.
5. Windows is good for some server scenarios where easy administration is needed.
Get GUI server tools for Linux and its easy too. SUSE has them all with YaST, RedHat has some; you can find all the GUI stuff you need with a little research on Google.
I imagine you mean forums instead of mailing list. As it happens, people only post on forums when they have problems, not when things go right – so looking at a forum to give an indication of how well the OS installs is going to give you a very distorted view.
I suspect that you are aware of this fact, but chose to ignore it because it fits with your anti-Linux agenda.
For many people OpenOffice is more than sufficient. For those who absolutely need MS Office, the latter runs flawlessly under Linux using Crossover, so that’s not an issue.
Oh, and Outlook? Give me a break…if you really want to use an Outlook clone, Evolution and Kontact are quite adequate.
So are game consoles. There are tons of exclusive games on consoles that you can’t get on Windows.
That’s a matter of opinion. Obviously there are many programmers who don’t use them, and manage to create very good programs nonetheless.
Linux servers can be extremely easy to administer, with such systems as Webmin.
I refuse to reply to your Microsoft propaganda, because it’s not even worth a discussion.
Before you shout something like that, first check out your resources, because you are making a fool of yourself
Like Novell, Dell is yet another company that is in dire straights, with no prospect of getting out of the slide any time soon, so I’m not surprised they’ve resorted to desperately trying to find some non-existent ways of differentiating themselves.
The deal provides more evidence that the Novell-Microsoft alliance launched last year is opening doors for Novell.
Well, no it doesn’t, because Novell are doing this in partnership with their number one biggest competitor, the number on reason reason why they’ve been losing customers for several years now and the company that wants to put them out of business. Microsoft is not going to help Novell do anything, because this deal opens some doors for Microsoft, not Novell.
It also gave Microsoft the impression of Linux IP infringement amongst corporate customers, and a split between commercial Linux and free Linux that they so desperately wanted. People using freely available software that they can download, that is good enough, is a fundamental threat to all the money that comes from Windows licensing and the software above that Microsoft could do nothing about.
Just to be clear, Microsoft is not funding and marketing Linux. Microsoft has bought thousands of SLES licenses from Novell that Novell couldn’t sell for love nor money, and is marketing it as a way of Windows and Linux working together. However, this puts Microsoft in the driving seat, because they can easily pressure customers into replacing Linux with Windows over time, or they could turn around and say “Well, we tried to offer Linux and Windows interoperability, but no one wanted it”.
Put simply, it gives Microsoft a foot in the door in the Linux world, and particularly Novell’s own customers who they want to get converted from Netware, eDirectory and Linux to Windows and Active Directory – as they’ve been doing for years. It’s rather like physically picking up a fox and placing it in your chicken house, and it’s utterly laughable that any company of any size in any industry would do such a thing – and not even realise it.
Under the alliance with Microsoft, the two companies are working together on “virtualization” software to let Windows machines run Novell SLES and vice versa.
Apart from some federated directory stuff that no one cares about, as I can see from the deal, Novell and Microsoft are working on no such thing together. Microsoft is using VirtualPC to run Linux, as they’ve been doing for years, and Novell will be using Xen with appropriate hardware to run Windows which had absolutely nothing to do with Microsoft. Microsoft even wanted to get Novell to sign a deal that would have seen them stop virtualising Windows on Linux, which Novell refused, so Microsoft sure as hell isn’t going to contribute to it.
Dell’s Becker said that was a key reason his company wanted to join the alliance.
No, it’s because you’re desperate to have something to sell. As soon as a company starts stirring around for non-existant reasons to buy their products, such as indemnification, you know they’re in a spot of bother.
“There’s many aspects of open source that delight my customers,” Becker said, but “they have concerns . . . about software licensing.
Hmmmm. What you’re supposedly selling has nothing to do with software licensing whatsoever.
Edited 2007-05-07 16:33
Good post overall.
First, if the last ditch effort for failing IT businesses is to contribute technical and marketing efforts to Linux, rather than, say, becoming a patent troll, then I think the world is better off than before. However, it could be argued that Novell is exploring both Linux contribution and patent trolling simultaneously through this deal.
The problem with this deal is that for all of the benefit that Novell gets out of it–and the potential is substantial–Microsoft gets the fat end of the stick. They get to become the marketing front for an IT outlook dominated by a heterogeneous Windows/Linux strategy. Microsoft is sending the message that IT is a blend of both platforms, and you can only get both from Microsoft. Novell will get their’s, but Microsoft will get a cut, and it will come out of the hard work of the Linux community.
We can officially say goodbye to our vision of changing the economics of the software industry. While we may succeed in proliferating free software and pushing proprietary software out to the niches, the flow of money will remain remarkably unchanged. There will still be a Microsoft tax, and there will still be a cost associated with being “Genuine.” How silly of us to assume that changing the software would change the business. Some things just never change.
What was the vision of changing the economics of the software industry? I always got the feeling that the driving force behind much of the free software out there was to “scratch an itch” for lack of a better description. Certainly the chariot of OSS over the last ten years now has been Linux, and that wasn’t started to change the economics of software industry. GNU aside, I never really got the feeling that there was a radical economic undertone in terms of affecting the corporate software world.
Despite what’s going on between Novell, Microsoft, and Dell, there’s nothing stopping you from getting Debian or OpenBSD and using that. While patent laws might make the US software industry landscape a virtual quagmire(heh heh, all-right), they don’t always apply world wide. Moreover at the end of the day, many of the developers who hack away at these projects, especially the big ones, are employed by these companies. Real life concerns, such as how to provide for one’s self or one’s family, tend to override relatively minor issues such as software. Even Jeremy Allison, the championed developer who left Novell due to the Microsoft deal, waited to leave Novell until he had something lined up elsewhere.
At least part of the idea of free software is that there are no tax collectors involved. There are many proven free software business models, and I’m a huge supporter of commercial interests in free software. But requiring that users pay a fee or risk legal action is not one of the business models I support. This is extortion, and it has no place in the free software economy.
If Microsoft wants to offer premium services for their Linux customers, I’ll support them. If they want to offer dual-licensed development toolkits of their own creation, let them go right ahead. If they want to sell proprietary add-ons, I couldn’t justify opposing their right to do so. If they want to sell hardware devices or provide web services based on Linux, that’s fine with me.
But they should not be able to assert their right to take a cut out of corporate Linux revenues just because of their industry clout. This is a clear abuse of their monopoly in the platform market, and if the courts won’t stop them, then we need new legislation.
My decision not to use Novells distributions doesn’t figure into this issue. The software I run has a lot of common code with the products Novell ships. Even OpenBSD has code covered by the Novell agreement. The global debate on intellectual property law doesn’t figure in either, because the international court of public opinion seems to impose its will on the enforceability of these laws anyway. What matters here is that Microsoft is asserting their ownership of unspecified parts of free software, and corporations have no choice but to bow to their unsubstantiated threats.
They do have that choice. Novell had a choice, they just chose the path unpopular to the community and left us “customers” scratching our heads wondering that the point of it is. But saying they had no choice is inferring more out of a few direct comments from Microsoft than you probably should be. Both Novell and Dell are most likely trying to hitch their wagons to Microsoft to benefit themselves. IBM and Red Hat to date don’t see a economic benefit in following along. Sometimes all you have to do is follow the money.
From a personal standpoint, I don’t care what Steve Balmer or some random Microsoft exec says they own or do not own. It’s all unsubstantiated BS anyway and I’ll continue to treat it as such until that BS becomes substantiated fact.
You pretty much hit the nail on the head. Up until this, I was considering a Dell laptop (even though the deal seems to be only US based). After hearing this, I wouldn’t touch Dell with a bargepole.
Linux users: boycott this in droves, it’s the only way to stop this Microsoft/Novell IP FUD.
Linus (and others): get over your self opinions and egos, change the Linux kernel pronto to GPL v3 (when it’s released) and stop this sort of shit from happening. It’s damaging to the Linux community, and to the term open source.
When FUD is involved, there’s no honesty. The sooner Dell and Novell go bust, the better. Good riddance.
Dave
*heavy sigh*
Perhaps if you guys started learning to code yourselves instead of crowding around Groklaw bitching about what Linus and the kernel devs should do, maybe you’d be able to achieve your own objectives instead of preaching for others to do it for you.
Instead, yet again the FSF proponents perpetuate the very FUD they decry from Microsoft in order the advance the v3 agenda. Physican, heal thy self.
Wow just wow. I’m not sure whether his post or your is more strange.
The poster has stated he wont support dell. because Dell by choosing Suse *and* in making political statements where it could have chosen to make none. Why they have done so is interesting.
But its interesting, because this choice by dell and the public statements why they have chosen their distribution leaves a bad taste.
I am not convinced for a moment that Dell is worried about Microsoft Suing them they are one of their Major customers.
Its a double win for Microsoft.
1) Its a success it supports the notion of Microsoft’s patents in Linux; and reinforces Suse being the only legitimate Company for using Microsoft’s IP(sic).
2) Its a failure…Vista server is better than Linux.
To be fair the whole deal gives with one hand and takes away with the other.
The reality is the Novell deal happened. Dell are making these statements. An American mistake is affecting the rest of the world.
You can’t put your head in the sand and say this isn’t happening. The FSF v3 agenda(sic) is going to do very well out of this…and rightly so, v2 was written many years before these problems exist.
Personally the world that we live in demands action; Whether v3 is a real solution to all the problems with v2 including the patent problem(sic), I very much doubt . I imagine v3 will not have the same mileage as that of v2, already its showing signs of being dated.
Edited 2007-05-08 02:32
Only if you buy into what Microsoft is shoveling. Some of us don’t find what Microsoft says to be law. Treating what they say as law, is buying right into what they’re saying. I think that’s part of what elsewhere is getting at, and something I agree with 100%. A certain segment of the OSS/Linux community is doing plenty of FUDing against OSS/Linux all by themselves.
While I’m giving IT directors as a whole more credit than some deserve, they don’t purchase or recommend to purchase products based on them being “better”. Let’s be real here, it’s the services, not the OS. Exchange and Active Directory are what draw customers, not the Windows Server OS itself.
“When FUD is involved, there’s no honesty”
Yes I agree and unfortunately but predictably all I am seeing here is FUD from certain Linuxphiles.
“The sooner Dell and Novell go bust, the better. Good riddance.”
Completely unbiased and impartial of course.
Gotta agree and Also might I mention that a lot of us are not looking at the larger picture. We can not allow Dell’s Ubuntu offering to fail or we go back to being an also ran OS. We are in no way being forced to buy the Novell products. Dell is doing what makes sense to its business customers and although I and many others disagree I am not willing to let that break our only chance to break this monopoly that has been holding many of us at gun point for years. I am only asking that we do what makes sense.
You pretty much hit the nail on the head. Up until this, I was considering a Dell laptop (even though the deal seems to be only US based). After hearing this, I wouldn’t touch Dell with a bargepole.
Well, assuming Dell follow-through on their promises to start Dell Linux desktop deals elsewhere soon (which admittedly is a pretty big assumption, and why do they need to add “localisation options” for the UK anyway?) you might want to rethink that. Here in the UK, the only Linux laptop reseller I know of gives you a choice of Ubuntu, or SuSE for an extra lb30 or so. I don’t see why, given that choice, anyone aware of the issues couldn’t just go for the Ubuntu option.
Edited 2007-05-08 15:28
Despite common British believe, the UK is considered to be part of the European market.
Even if in the case of a computer it might be the exact same model being sold in the US and in the UK, the European divison of companies still treat them differently.
Quite likely a matter of company bureaucracy, nevertheless a barrier
… to sponsor a team of developers to create MS-branded Linux distribution ?
“to sponsor a team of developers to create MS-branded Linux distribution ?”
Who wants a Linux distro infected with DRM/activation/WGA and a frightening EULA?
It would be called Novell Linux 2008
the free (as in speech) Linux dristibutions will survive no matter of the agreements made by the large corporations. They’ll continue its peace of development with the exception that they will have a larger _potential_ user base because, if some customers will get his/her Dell with Ubuntu or Suse pre-installed, it will spark some curiosity about the OS and some of them might research the subject a little more. If they’d got their machine with Windows by default then they might not even know that alternatives exist.
I’m not confused!
I’m not using anything from Dell and Novell. I will think twice before using Ubuntu (I’ll wait to see what the Ubuntu folks have to say about that deal). Bad things may happen… like some people jumping off Ubuntu’s ship (the comunity is the boss. It can start supporting another distro if it feels betrayed).
Browser: Opera/8.01 (J2ME/MIDP; Opera Mini/3.1.7196/1662; en; U; ssr)
I think that this is great for linux. Linux is now on Dell Hardward OEM. And the Linux products will receive better drivers from OEM’s. What a great thing to happen. Money will be put into the community and we will continue to have great distros.
Snaker
Linux user from way back
READ THESE WORDS, “MICROSOFT WILL NEVER GO AWAY” “NOVELL WILL NEVER GO WAY” “DELL WILL NEVER GO AWAY” The few of you who will not buy there products will never make a difference. When you start spending as much as even a small company then you can talk and even then it will will not make a difference. Money talks and your BS walks.
It is not to say that what is happening is not worth talking about but you are making money because of these companies.
Allot of computers I fix are DELL and they all run MS software. Even when they do not have MS office they do not want try anything else because their users do not want to use anything else. They are also worried about their clients about being able to open the documents. They do not have or want to spend the time to training anyone on anything they do not to.
Linux of great but please let not get it confused it has a long way to go before it reaches the real end users and before it reaches them it must enter the enterprise. Because most people buys when they use in the office.
Allot of computers I fix are DELL
…yes, I’m sure they are.
RFOL!!!
I can see a definite embrace-and-extend tactic going on in a huge way between the Microsoft and Linux worlds via the Novell bridge. But I wonder, just who will be extending whom? I think MS is biting off something bigger than they can chew if they think they can embrace and extend Linux.
We have a bunch of Dell servers blinking away in our server room. I have NetWare, Windows Server, and even SLES all running on them. I’m not quite following what this is all about from my point of view. What is different?
Edited 2007-05-07 18:01
You sure they’re not blinking out error codes on the LEDs? That happens with Dell’s, you know.
So, Microsoft is selling “protection” as in “if you pay us to use Linux we won’t break your legs er… we mean… we won’t sue you”?
A computer with Ubuntu is better than a computer with MicroSUSE.
The concerns go away if you install a Linux not infected with Mono. Otherwise, you ought to pay the Dell/Novell/Microsoft Sucker tax.
Show your objections by visiting and promoting http://www.ideastorm.com/article/show/67008/Dont_imply_Microsoft_IP…
This has several consequences:
a) no ubuntu on Dell servers. So much for Mark Shuttleworth’s business plan to inch his way onto the server market
b) pressure to give Microsoft “intellectual property” money, more pressure on Red Hat, more pressure on Canonical. Dell used to be a HUGE Red Hat partner, now see below-
c) Some sort of marketing team being set up to convert people to Novell GNU/Linux.
“Under the agreement, Dell will establish a customer marketing team for migrating Linux users who are not Dell Linux customers to SUSE Linux Enterprise Server. The marketing effort will focus on three areas: Interoperability Workshops, Migration Proof of Concepts and Migration Services.”
“On Sunday, Microsoft and Novell said Dell has agreed to buy Suse Linux Enterprise Server certificates from Microsoft and that the computer maker will set up a services and marketing program aimed at getting users of open-source platforms to switch to the new Suse Linux offering.”
Switch to SuSE, and pay the requisite Microsoft tax to be safe from their wrath.
http://www.novell.com/news/press/dell-joins-microsoft-and-novell-co…
I won’t even get into interoperability, I hope everyone knows that’s a complete joke and a smokescren for licensing Linux from Microsoft (MSPP and the patent deal). Does Novell even have any Samba developers anymore, or have they all left for Google already like Jeremy Allison did?
Edited 2007-05-08 01:26