“If you visited the Plasma project’s outdated Web site in past weeks, you might have gotten the impression that the team behind the project to revitalize the KDE desktop hasn’t been up to much these past months. Delve into KDE’s SVN repository, mailing lists, or the mind of lead developer Aaron Seigo, however, and you’ll find a more exciting story.” More here.
The Icon-icons are possibly the worst UI feature I have seen for a while. (Clippy? The Vista Shut-Down button?) Up to 4 extra icons on each icon?? Without labels to tell you what these contextual things do.
This is a usability nightmare, I don’t know where to begin. Fitts is having a fit, they’re replacing/duplicating context menu functionality (which has the added benefit of _labels_), it’s mystery meat actions – you don’t know what’s going to happen until you click, and thus regular users won’t dare touch something they think will “break the computer” because they clicked the wrong thing.
i suppose there is, indeed, nothing like comentating on that which one has not used, seen or understood.
it is the easiest and most rewarding of sports as it requires neither deep understanding of the topic and cannot be assailed due to its firm rooting in fiction.
so let me help you understand “where to begin”: first, the versions of this that were tested on users (whose population included but was not biased towards geekdom) included text and offered larger targets. we’ll be moving toward versions that include the findings of that research.
but thank you for using the first comment on this article to assume stupidity, naivity and proclaim foul on a work in progress.
not to compare my efforts with the greater da vinci, but to analogize, it is like you are watching da vinci sketch pencil lines for a great painting and throwing tomatos at him for such sloppy work.
btw … what cool ideas for desktop interfaces have you derived, tested and implemented recently?
Edited 2007-06-21 22:41
* clicking the sub-icon to open a file duplicates and confuses double clicking an icon to open it too. Is there a difference between the two? The user cannot be 100% certain. I thought when he first clicked the sub-icon that it would “edit” the file instead of “open”, because it would be just plain weird to also open the file when double-click would do the same.
* Having an icon with the corners essentially lopped off y click regions makes for aiming, moving and processing icons more difficult. Especially considering that the sub-icons don’t appear until your mouse is over the icon, meaning that if I’m rapidly dragging files from one folder to another, I could end up clicking one of the sub-icons very easy. My target is reduced.
* These icons can be mime-type specific. With lots of different apps vying for importance, the end user is going to have to manage these sub-icons. The average user rarely, if ever, ventures into Preferences. They will continue being annoyed by a feature rather than turn it off.
* Mystery-meat-navigation. You have no idea what’s going to happen until it happens. An average user often fears that clicking the wrong icon will delete something. Presenting them with 4 icons to do with the one icon they’re looking at is only going to increase this fear, let alone increase the amount of options they have to deal with.
I could go on for ages honestly, but it’s 1AM in the morning.
I deal with completely average users every single day. People who even have difficulty using a mouse. I know very well what makes a good interface and what makes a bad one from many years of first hand experience. I can assure you that I’ve clocked up more hours of watching users using interfaces than you or your team has testing KDE4.
“I can assure you that I’ve clocked up more hours of watching users using interfaces than you or your team has testing KDE4.”
That’s a pretty arrogant assumption, and I would think probably wrong. Anybody can play that game.
I’ve been fixing computers since I was 16 (7 years), do you want to place bets, because I’m pretty assured of my statement? I’m very much in the opinion that icons-on-icons is starting off on the wrong foot. No amount of improvement and tweaking can fix what is IMO a fundamental design mistake – layering click targets. Imagine if your browser back button went all the way back to the first entered page if you clicked the left half; and only back once if you clicked the right half. No amount of polish would fix a turd like that.
Edited 2007-06-21 23:07
If you’ve been into computers that long then your view on user interfaces is already distorted and you’re not qualified to comment on what’s good for the “average” user.
So you’ve been helping average users for years. Big deal. That doesn’t make you an expert on user interfaces. Real user interface design is done by testing on users, and more testing on users, not by boasting on the Internet about how great you are and how others suck and that you must be right.
Edited 2007-06-21 23:08
Right, so personally watching and helping regular users in the use of their computer for years doesn’t qualify? You need people who are very well trained in interpreting the actions users take, and that takes experience, and years of talking to users – and not treating them like they’re the problem.
> personally watching and helping regular users in
> the use of their computer
it’s certainly useful if data can be accurately accrued from it. we often rely on exactly that.
but saying that it is, on its own, a qualification for making accurate analysis of usability and software design is like saying that someone who watches sick people and helps them through the coughs and aches is therefore qualified to cure them. or someone who offers directions to travellers while collecting tolls at a bridge tollbooth is qualified to design and build said bridge.
perhaps you have used this experience to suss out important details and information, using it as an opportunity for scientific observation built on understandings of human mechanisms, much as jane goodall’s time in the forests of africa was such an opportunity to learn about the great apes.
but please excuse those of us who play the part of doubter if we do not immediately believe on the basis of a support role alone due to having enjoyed our share of armchair developers who claim exactly the same background.
Since you’re acting all “I am better than you”, I’d so no, you won’t qualify. You’re treating developers as evil cult leaders who have nothing better to do than to make users’ lives miserable, instead of hard working people who want to help users by developing new interfaces.
Obviously the user has to know what will happen when they click, the devs know that. When you slide your mouse over one of the corners it could easily display a mouse over effect telling you what it does, or change the graphic on the corner to look like a play button. One thing that has always annoyed me is that in order to delete something you have to drag to the trash, press delete on the keyboard right click, etc. With this you could make the bottom right hand corner always have a picture of a trash icon, you push the corner, and the file is deleted. Seems very usefull to me
> that has always annoyed me is that in order to
> delete
exactly. so many common tasks take so many steps and so much hand/eye coordination (something i, and probably you, find trivial, but which is a difficult learned set of motions) which we can shortcut with “hover, click”
does anyone else here remember those early mac ads where they showed all this wicked cool software painting and changing fonts and then showed a hand moving and clicking that single mouse button while the voice over said, “but you’ll have to learn to do .. this *click*”
we (desktop developers in general) have lost that early brilliant vision. let’s get back to organic simplicity, creating interfaces that make the common task discoverable and simple and the uncommon task achievable.
I couldn’t agree with you more about going back to organic simplicity. I’m just not sure this is it.
Just like Kroc said, you’re reducing the surface area of the icon itself. What happens when the user’s hand slips and they unintentionally click the recycle bin icon, now that it’s in the corner of the icon itself!? Seems to me like this idea creates the necessity of better hand-eye coordination and video-game like precision instead of less.
Dude, if that’s the case, then I’ve been fixing, playing with and generally poking around with computers since you were just out of diapers.
I remember when the Osborne came out, self-proclaimed experts had no end of arguments about why portable computers would never be successful. I remember when the IBM PC came out, self-proclaimed experts claimed it would never overtake the Apple ][ because of it’s price and lack of software. I remember when the Apple Lisa came out, self-proclaimed experts dismissed graphical-computing as an expensive and inefficient toy. I remember when the Mac came out, self-proclaimed experts claimed it would make the DOS PC obsolete. I remember when Windows was released, self-proclaimed experts dismissed it as being too late and that other maufacturers dominated graphical computing. I remember when Office hit Windows and self-proclaimed experts decided that it was inferior to WordPerfect and would never gain traction. I remember when self-proclaimed experts claimed that the “web” would never be widely accepted because of it crudity and complexity. I remember when self-proclaimed experts laughed at the though of Microsoft ever displacing Novell or Unix companies in the datacenter. I remember when self-proclaimed experts claimed Microsoft would not be able to withstand the momentum of Netscape. I remember when self-proclaimed experts emphatically discounted the possibility of linux becoming anything more than hobbyist project. I remember when self-proclaimed experts claimed OS X would supplant Windows as the dominant desktop platform. I remember when self-proclaimed experts even denied rumours that Apple would ever produce a digital music player.
In short, I’ve learned that any time somebody proclaims expertise in the technology field, their opinion is in question. Give yourself another decade, and you’ll understand what I mean. Change happens before you know it.
Who knows? Maybe you’re right. But if developers stopped and said, “Aw, shucks” everytime somebody questioned their intent, we’d probably still be flipping toggle switches and counting flashing lights every time we wanted to run a program. I betcha that self-proclaimed experts at one time claimed that punch cards would never be as effective as toggle switches and patch cables for inputing information.
—-I’ve been fixing computers since I was 16 (years)—-
7 years is not so long you cant remember the first release of windows 95…. 13 floppy disks… disk one was formatted at 1.77 as a copy protection…
shucks windows 2000 and ME were probably already released before you started…
redhat 6 was munching through the office years before… hmmm running linux on psion 5 was the in thing… and the thinkpad 380ed was sweet for linux….
kde had been around for four years before you picked up the keyboard… or x86 cpu…
I am not saying your thoughts are invalid just remember your coming to the party late ((by a few decades)) and there will be a hell of a lot of people that know a heck more then you or I….
kde3.5.x has been mega sweet… and put it this way if they do mess up they know someone will come along and just fork kde’s development…
there’s nothing like pressure
I remember when self-proclaimed experts claimed OS X would supplant Windows as the dominant desktop platform.
I’ve never seen as many Macs around than lately actually
But about dominant, right.
Still, Kroc’s points are good. Too bad about the last one.
I remember when experts said we’d all be running a single processor at 10Ghz by now and dual processors would soon be a thing of the past. Well, local experts anyway. Most of the “experts” I know are short sighted idiots.
Fixing computers since you were 16?
I thought it was well known that trying to boast about your credentials/experience on the internet doesn’t really serve much purpose unless you can back them up with something (like, for example, Bill Gates can say that he’s really rich, because everyone knows, or has a way to know).
7 years isn’t really that long. And most people realize that by the time they’re 23.
@Kroc
So removing spyware makes you a UI design expert? As a guy who actually rights software and has to deal with human computer interaction I’m going to say it’s _nowhere_ near a fundamental design flaw.
Your browser analogy is completely flawed. Icons keep getting bigger and bigger, mostly for aesthetic reasons. People have huge displays and hate tiny little icons. This trend is going to continue. Why not take advantage of those extra pixels those icons are using.
Please stay with fixing computers and leave HCI to people who actually know what they’re doing and who’s opinions actually matter.
Your argument makes no sense. You argue against tiny icons, but then argue for adding tiny icons to each big icon.
“I’ve been fixing computers since I was 16 (7 years)”
I’ve been driving a car since I was 18 (18 years) but that doesn’t make me a car designer.
To be fair, I think you’re deliberately taking him out of context. I’m not sure he’s trying to convince the world he’s a HCI expert per se, simply being a long-term user does give a certain amount of weight from a users’ point of view.
So after your 18 years of driving, despite not being a car designer, what you should be able to judge is a well designed car vs. a badly designed car, right?
It keeps being mentioned that only by observing users do researchers understand what is good for UI and what is bad. I don’t see how Kroc’s feedback is any less valid for speaking his mind now instead of being explicitly invited for comment.
I’m not saying I agree with him, but I don’t understand why he’s being shot down for a pretty reasonable assessment.
I’ve been fixing computers since I was 16 (7 years)
That makes you an expert in GUI design? I’ve been fixing computers for about 17 years, and I’ve been officially paid for network administration and end user support for about 7…..I guess that would make me a certified GUI genius!
well, like I said, anybody can play that game. I’ve been working with computers since I bought a VIC 20 in 1983, when I was 11, so I know much more about interface design than you, so you’re wrong!
You may be right, you might be wrong, but I don’t think you deserve the right to denigrate the entire projects experience and skills. The icons on icons truly may suck, but at least they are trying new things, different directions, and I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt, as the whole thing is still in development.
> clicking the sub-icon to open a file
it was a demonstration to show how clicking activates an action. since the icons already launch something it was the easiest action to perform, as it was pre-existing.
> Having an icon with the corners essentially lopped
> off y click regions makes for aiming, moving and
> processing icons more difficult
remember what i said about not having tried something? see, moving isn’t impeded. if you click and drag on any part of the icon, including the little minibuttons, it moves. yes, this was tested on users and yes, had you tried it yourself you’d know that.
aiming and processing are silly points since they actually make aiming and processing easier as they give contextual regions to pre-qualify your aiming and processing.
> These icons can be mime-type specific. With lots of
> different apps vying for importance, the end user
> is going to have to manage these sub-icons.
straw man.
we’ve never said the icons were configurable or that individual applications would have a go at claiming those spots.
> Mystery-meat-navigation. You have no idea what’s
> going to happen until it happens
which is also what happens with plain ol’ icons until the user builds up a (rather sophisticated, btw) mental model of what happens when you click, double click, drag and right click on such a beast. you are operating from a pre-assumed body of knowledge and discounting the learning involved in acruing said body of knowledge.
moreover, i’m not sure what part of “we tested with text and will be moving in that direction” was hard to understand from my first reply, but there it is again.
> I can assure you that I’ve clocked up more hours of
> watching users using interfaces than you or your
> team has testing KDE4.
you really don’t want to try to win a cock length contest on this one. trust me.
No, but if it was a cock-up contest, you’ve already won.
it was a demonstration to show how clicking activates an action. since the icons already launch something it was the easiest action to perform, as it was pre-existing.
So if the concept is so useful, why couldn’t you, for purpose of the demonstration, come up with some real-world uses for it so people can better understand why it exists and what problem it solves? Instead of making it do something that can and is accomplished with double-clicking already. That’s generally what software companies do when demoying technologies.
straw man.
we’ve never said the icons were configurable or that individual applications would have a go at claiming those spots.
Ok, then tell us how it works?
which is also what happens with plain ol’ icons until the user builds up a (rather sophisticated, btw) mental model of what happens when you click, double click, drag and right click on such a beast. you are operating from a pre-assumed body of knowledge and discounting the learning involved in acruing said body of knowledge.
Almost a valid point, but it’s must most simplistic for existing icons. Double clicking opens the file in the default application, which is easy to remember. Dragging it to an application general opens the file somehow as well. Your technology has that AND it’s adding up to 4 more actions per icon that can be VERY different per icon type. If you did add text labels it would definitely improve usability, but I’m still not convinced it’s that useful.
> come up with some real-world uses for it so people
> can better understand why it exists and what
> problem it solves
because ruphy, in his enthusiasm, wanted to show it off immediately after he got the register/show process to work. he showed what he had implemented thus far and no more. the openusability people put together several excellent use cases some two years ago and published them on the appeal website.
> what software companies
i’m sure you noticed, but we’re not a software company. we are, especially when it comes to these screencasts, in the business of communicating with each other rather than try and hock wares at people. they often show the state of code at that particular moment in time. and in this moment in time were are in the alpha’s for kde 4.0. ever seen video of an alpha while the developers work on it from apple or microsoft? that’s because they are software companies.
> Ok, then tell us how it works?
for given categories of mime types, there are general actions registered by the host application. if the action requires outside assistance (e.g. another application) we query to see if any application has laid claim to that capability (doesn’t need to be running) and associate that action with the highest ranked associated claimant.
think of it as a person needing specific work done on their car and going around town asking for quotes.
> but it’s must most simplistic for existing icons
i would sugges the book “the humane interface” by jeff raskin. the man was not right 100% of the time, but boy did he have a lot of keen insights. the response to your issue here can be found by reading his (among and others) book.
The amount of time, effort and energy kde developers put into kde is unimaginable.
There are ALWAYS going to be squeaky wheels that want to get greased. If you are not careful, you believe that they represent the majority.
When you are as knowledgeable and passionate about something as the KDE team, I know it must be difficult to ignore detractors. But, it costs you energy and momentum.
I understand constructive criticism. But, that it is not what Kroc is providing. His comments are arrogant, distasteful, out of order and antagonistic.
Just ignore people like him and know there are many many more who appreciate the hard work the KDE team is doing.
I’m sure you knew all of that. But, maybe it’s nice to be reassured occasionally.
Regards and Thanks.
Did you also test it with users with visual or motor impairments? Or even only (KDE)-untrained users?
Can I at least disable it?
Kroc, I can bet my entire checkout of the kde4 svn last night that the moment GNOME guys copy this feature and proclaim it the greatest thing since sliced bread, you would stand up and applause too.
Having followed development of both DE’s since they started off, I can say this with reasonable accuracy since every feature/app copied into GNOME suddenly becomes the most user-friendly and accessible and what-not.
Sorry, but i had to say this. It is rather frustrating to read comments such as yours and then read comments singing praises to similar features implemented elsewhere …
Maybe, its a flame-bait but it had to be said.
the open action was clearly a proof of concept.
he talked about having special actions like adding to play list and similar.
hell, it may well be that double clicking can be disabled, given that these icons showed when floating the mouse over the icon.
hell, double clicking isnt perfect either. unless one makes sure to hit the icon every single time, one is bound to end up getting the “edit file name” function ever so often because one is a bit slow. sure, one can tune that in places like a control panel. but unless you think you know something about computers, you dont venture there for fear of breaking something.
Opening the file was just an example. For a source code file, the buttons might be:
* edit it
* compile it
* (for a header) run a search to see what #includes it
* commit it into the tree
Or for a sound file:
* play it
* put it in the playlist
* share it
* view metadata
btw … what cool ideas for desktop interfaces have you derived, tested and implemented recently?
Aaron, calm down
. While Kroc’s comment lacked in the nuance department, he does raise some interesting points. Discoverability is one, and the other is indeed the size of the targets. However, as you rightly point out, this is work-in-progress; Kroc should have added something along the lines of “this specific implementation”.
Personally, this might be one of those features that won’t really make sense until you tried it. Expose is the most famous example of such a feature; it didn’t make any sense on paper, but when you’ve used it, you don’t really want to live without it.
On a broader note, it seems like KDE4 is moving along nicely lately. I remember our little spat a few months ago, and also that I reiterated how I felt about KDE4.0’s release date: 2008. I still feel that way (despite the official release schedule); however, I must say, if you guys keep on working at this pace, I might have to eat my words.
Which I will do, publically, by the way. Of course I could be a sore loser by saying KDE4.0 != KDE4, but hey, I won’t. If I lost, I lost. What do you say, we bet a bottle of {insert favourite (affordable) drink} on this one?
guinness it is! and in either case, i’ll buy at least one round if it means we can sit around and chew the fat a bit longer.
i’m actually in the british isles starting next week, first for akademy and then for lug radio live. if you make it out to either (presumably the latter is more likely) certainly be sure to find me in the crowd and we’ll raise a frosty mug.
That’s a deal then
. I won’t be making it to aKadamy and LUG, but I’ll be sure to send/buy you a Guinness were KDE4.0 released this year (2007). If it won’t be: Martini Bianco 
.
I agree with Aaron. People should value better what is basically nice work done for free.
That is the biggest fool thing we have ever done. The bomb will never go off, and I speak as an expert in explosives.
– Admiral William Leahy. [Advice to President Truman, when asked his opinion of the atomic bomb project.]
Actually that looks like some real innovation and it could be useful. The idea is still in its infancy, but shows some promise. I know I would like to play an audio file without opening a separate app for that. Apple’s QuickLook is *sorta* like that, so we’ll see what paradigm’s going to be ultimately accepted.
http://www.linux-wizard.net/index.php?id_blog=144
interesting videos those
i specifically liked the watch that changes depending on where its used.
makes me wonder about using a single app for all kinds of devices from N800 like up to full on desktops. and the app would adapt to what kind of device its on.
This is nothing exciting, at all. Poor showing if you ask me.
What is there to get excited about to do some simple animations on moving over an icon? or Context-specific tasks?
I don’t even see much room for potential here.
It’s a shame. KDE4 is being so hyped, yet I’ve seen so little from it that was impressive, either from a visual/demo stand-point or from a developers stand point.
Keep working though. Even if something doesn’t come out as good as you planned, it will still be learned from and it will still benefit people.
> about to do some simple animations on moving over
> an icon?
0. that we’re providing a comprehensive framework to add such animations to your own work in 1 line (if it is a “whole item” animatio) or 3-4 lines if it is an element (“part of an item”) animation. apple is going this way with CoreAnimation as well, of course.
1. that phase/animator is pluggable allowing easy adjust based on: computing power, bandwidth (thin/remote client), accessibility requirements, etc
> or Context-specific tasks
0. discoverability (no right-clicking about, which is very much a power user tactic)
1. accessibility
i completely agree it all seems so bloody obvious once you’ve seen it. but why, then, did nobody have anything announced let alone implemented when we first published specs on this 2+ years ago? because the obvious is less obvious before it has been presented.
and even 2 years on we’re delivering it in fashions others aren’t.
given that this is but one small feature of a much larger (and imo more interesting) whole, that makes me pretty happy. not satisfied (that might lead to me heading off to a tropical beach to loll out my remaining life
but at least happy. =)
Edited 2007-06-21 23:17
and even 2 years on we’re delivering it in fashions others aren’t.
Delivering what exactly?
I’m sorry, but these demos are showing so little right now and not showing much in the way of real world uses.
I understand it’s a framework and is extensible, but you need to go further to show how it can be extended. This is way too basic.
It’s easy to say “it will/can do this and will/can do that”, but it’s harder to demonstrate it.
Edited 2007-06-21 23:23
> Delivering what exactly?
i thought i covered that? pluggable, accessible, etc. or am i missing prior art that is in current production circulation?
> but you need to go further to show how it can be
> extended
we will and are.
but by your suggestion, free software development should not happen in the open but somewhere dark and secretive until it’s “done”. which, of course, is not how this open model works at all.
i apologize for having exposed you to the development grind and taken the veil aside from the magic of the process. please understand that we do so because we have a large contingent that enjoys not only observing said process but engaging in it, which they can only do when we communicate broadly.
marketing to the masses will happen later and will showcase “final product” as you are apparently more accustomed to seeing.
it is a culture shock, that i acknowledge. both for you: when someone shows a work in progress rather than final product meant to seduce the consumer; as well for me: when someone walks into our workshop and mistakes it for a sales floor showroom. =)
Personally I think, plasma/kde4 bring some very unique ideas to the table, that will change the way we use a computer for the greater good. I can’t wait for the final release.
I think you’ve hit on an important point that is the benefit and drawback of open development. For every person impressed with your results to date, there will be someone or two to say, “so what?” The side-effect of the success of linux and FLOSS in general is this appetite for immediate gratification.
I’m almost at the point where I wish KDE4 development did happen behind closed doors; as great as it is being developed in the open, it gets tiring hearing about “what’s that supposed to do?” or “what’s the point” or, worse, “where’s plasma?”. I guess that’s the price to be paid.
Heavy sigh.
Out in the open is fine. But when people make actual demos, they should be better prepared to show the usefulness of what they are demonstrating.
It’s not a criticism of open source, it’s a criticism of the person or persons that prepared the demo.
Out in the open is fine. But when people make actual demos, they should be better prepared to show the usefulness of what they are demonstrating.
I thought the usefulness was rather obvious – are you unable to imagine the button doing something else besides opening the file? They even listed some examples for you, like adding a media file to a playlist. Perhaps you don’t think that is a good idea, and that is your right. But saying they didn’t even show how it could be useful?
I think it may end up being like tabbed browsing. I never understood what all the hype was about until I finally made the switch away from IE, and now I can’t imagine going without it.
Isn’t KDE4 supposed to be released in 4 months? And development has been going on for years.
I’m just underwhelmed by what they have to show up so close to a release date.
Development on plasma has only been going on for a couple months or so.
Edited 2007-06-22 18:28
I thought the usefulness was rather obvious – are you unable to imagine the button doing something else besides opening the file?
Nothing that I need to do so often that I can’t be bothered to make an extra click.
Development on plasma has only been going on for a couple months or so.
Thanks, I didn’t know that.
Did you actually read the text or did you just look for fancy pictures/videos?
What I found most impressive is this:
“Both DataEngines and Plasmoids can be developed quickly with the Plasma framework. Seigo notes that the dictionary DataEngine took only 81 lines of code, while a more complex one for weather took 373. Both of these DataEngines will likely be reused in several Plasmoids. The current dictionary Plasmoid occupies just 177 lines of code.”
It means KDE4 has created a pretty solid (no pun inteded) and extensible base.
Yes I read it and I watched the demos. Still unimpressed.
It’s all talk right now and what they are showing is so basic, it’s hard to feel excited.
You really don’t get it do you? This is exciting stuff the whole framework, as has been pointed out a million times, is getting rock solid and will allow for all sorts of spiffy things in KDE4. Ah well … no point really arguing, some people can never be satisfied.
before throwing more wood onto the fire. KDE4.0 is still work in progress.
Seriously, some of these features might not survive or be modified. They may even find themselves into other DEs.
Calm down people and let’s watch how KDE unfolds.
I find it nice that they try to find new paradigms. Who wants yet another GUI that looks like every other?
Now let’s see if its really usable when it’s out
But luckily out of all the ideas some will be good and kept, or refined to be better.
Why botter?
It is obvious the demos are just a small part of what is coming, what I think is inmature is to have a KDE developer here defending such demos in an early state, my advice, tell them that is an alpha or something and that they should waith for it till the day it gets released, period.
You (KDE developer), defending such product in an early state ain’t classy and honestly the next time some one mentions Plasma it won’t do nothing but bringing to our memories this useless discussion, so cut it out already.
No one is going to win this disccution.
I don’t think so. Aaron is not “defending” some software in an early state. There is no cause to “defend” something in genral.
If he is defending something, then it’s the openness of KDE as a project. This openness includes that alpha state software results are showcased to have discussions about it. This is what “Open” means in Open Source software development. Just having a svn server at some address noone knows about is not enough.
And this, with all it’s difficulties, like misperceptions, negative comments an alpha stage software, etc. is still worth it. Because this kind of openness encourages people to actually take part in a project like this, instead of just commenting it on a newssite.
btw. I don’t know how I will like the icons. I will maybe comment if I have tested them in my kde4 development environment. How do I know how to set up a full blown KDE4 development environment? Because its described on techbase.kde.org !
Open Source rocks!
Hi Aseigo this is probably aimed more at yourself and all the other devs.. working on KDE4….
I am not a developer at all not by trade or hobby ((( well not yet until i am converted i guess which still seems many years away)))
GET TO THE POINT GET TO THE POINT DAZ!!! getting there
…………….
you know when the magical “lock panels was implemented in KDE3 (not sure which version first saw the full implementation if memory servers me well it was kind of a staggered event through releases)…
could there be … will there be… is there… a “lock desktop” ((((maybe should not be lock desktop as its too close to locking the computer up with a screen saver)))
i am always surprised at seeing how many icons /files people or so called pros have scattered all over their desktop (((windows desktop))) i cant think for the life of me that any modern desktop has this feature ((((( not like as easy to use as lock panels is in kde3 / Lock task bar in XP))))
I have seen schools / colleges and universities try to implement this in the past and the background (wallpaper) is set up to highlight office apps or uni news sites or other things.. but it was never done well….
just a thought for the average user and it might also reduce the options until you do unlock the desktop….
thanks for anyone’s time for reading……………………………………………………
daz
Yes, you can lock down the desktop in KDE 3 already. You can lock down pretty much anything, it’s one of the reasons KDE quite often gets deployed across by large retail chains.
It’s as though aseigo is the Derek Smart of the KDE world: he can always be summoned by criticism of his software. Hopefully the similarity ends there, and KDE4 doesn’t come out years late and unpolished
Should this post unintentionally summon Dr. Smart, please don’t take it hard. Battlecruiser was incredibly ambitious and a wonderful concept, but perhaps too much to break off and chew.
Come to think of it, sometimes KDE4 gives me the same impression. There are a lot of things being talked about in terms of KDE 4.1 (akonadi etc), though I guess that means taking several bites instead of one gigantic unchewable one, so it’s not really criticism.
I think I’m a little skeptical since I am very satisfied with KDE3. That being so, groundbreaking changes just don’t sound appealing. Solid, Phonon etc have real benefits (or will, once done) and I am happy for them. I just tend to shy away from UI changes (icons on icons??). A sure sign I am getting old I guess. I look forward to KDE4 with a bit of UI inspired dread, but I’ll be using it! And I am glad aseigo is here; hearing from a developer is a nice thing.
aaron seigo Aaron Seigo AARON SEIGO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2p5gw36oEW0 if you have no idea what I’m referencing
Nice job KDE team. Hoping for KDE4 to arrived.
Icons if I may will clearly be a good step towards usability. No more right-click to view or edit a file, just set of mini-icons on top that will tell you if u want to view or edit or etc.
One last thing, please don’t make the taskbar vista-like.
I agree 100%! It sucks that everyone copies this stupid taskbar.
With the flexibility of KDE4 in mind, I’d hope that we get a couple of choices concerning taskbar design. Maybe even a little tool to design our own, who knows…
The man made the UI Paradigm of NeXTSTEP/Openstep a dream of intuition.
Even OS X has violated many of his innovations by either dropping them and making OS X less useful or they “thought differently” and just made it more appealing to the pre-OS X Mac crowd.
I really wish Keith hadn’t declined Steve’s offer and abandoned his WebTV job.
It’s the fact that KDE are showing you in bits what KDE4 is upto, which makes it less impressive to the people who expect the final product to be awesome.
Showing little titbits like this is not that impressive and this is why people claim KDE4 is over hyped. Doing it in secret makes it sound even more impressive and hyped, you only need to look at Vista to see that.
I think people are wanting to see “wow” fantasic effects and eye candy rather than boring things, like the videos which really are rather good ideas. I think the users are over hyping KDE4 and rather the developers are showing us the reality of it all.
Doing it in secret makes it sound even more impressive and hyped, you only need to look at Vista to see that.
Huh? Microsoft demo’ed Vista, a LOT. Channel9 always had ton of videos with MS employees demoing certain things. But they were always better prepared, even if what they were showing was small or not ready yet.
On the blog AdamW linked above there’s also a video showing Dolphin, the file manager, and I noticed something somewhat strange.
Rating my files? Why?
I can understand tagging and commenting my files, for search purposes, but why would I rate my files?
Applications like Amarok or Digikam allow to rate e. g. pictures and audio-files. So when browsing through your pictures- or music-collection with Dolphin you can access to these ratings, can sort the current view by ratings etc.
Best regards,
Peter
I imagined it would be something like that.
However, I still don’t get the need to rate my files. I mean… I’ve got some music, but I don’t really like it? And… am I going to look for the best image I have?
I understand ratings in a place with many (and I mean a lot) people voting. You can then use those ratings as an estimate of popularity. But on my desktop, where only I use my files, or at most I share them with my girlfriend, why would I need to remind myself of how much I like a certain song?
I could make a playlist of the songs I like best, but I could do this anyway with a “favorite” tag. I may look for songs I really like a lot, but am I ever going to look for the songs I don’t like or are so-so?
Reading the posts I’m wondering why there are so many negative reactions. If you REALLY took the time to take a closer look to KDE4, not just the code, but the ideas, the community and so on, you will see that KDE4 is going to be great.
And with great I mean that it will provide a new foundation for more innovative stuff along the release cycle of KDE4.
I could make the same argument (a new foundation — WPF, WCF, all the WinFX stuff) for Vista, but that doesn’t seem to prevent any negativity.
KDE is really getting to an aesthetic where a Mac OS X / GNOME user can look at it without getting a migraine from all the screen clutter. Really really promising – I can feel a switch of preferred desktop coming on for when I’m not on a Mac.
As for the icon corner thing, wow, i’ve seem this on objects in Smalltalk/Squeak… seems complex but possibly really useful – who knows, only time will tell.
yeah, and KDE users get a migraine when trying gnome for the lack of necessary features..
features? you mean clutter right?
<edit>
Actually, you prompted a thought. You’re a good point, desktop users in general use KDE (not my choice!), and server OS’s use GNOME where you only ever use it for opening multiple terminal windows!
To be honest, I’ve always thought KDE needs its garishness toning down, and GNOME needs sprucing up. What it is good to see is KDE evolving – and thats something GNOME isn’t doing just right now.
Edited 2007-06-22 20:45
So much criticism on the first page… and for what!? Implementing a new feature!? Listen, this is what DEs really need… someone with the balls to move forward with new ideas. And frankly, I think that the KDE-people are smart enough to kill their own ideas, if they turn out to not benefit the user… flaming won’t help.
Also, with the new Plasma framework it seems (or maybe I misunderstood the purpose of the code examples?) that implementing these features are a breeze. The future of Desktop UI ideas truly looks bright, and I, for one, can’t wait to try and make my own little Plasma applet… sorry, widget
Aaron, take a look in google earth.
When you click on a city with more than one object (a pin for exemple), it will expand to show the pins around the central point. I think it’s much better, because each expanded pin could show it’s action/behavior.
Anyway, I hope this isn’t a default option on KDE4, even if I liked the idea, the double click is just simpler and better.
I like it… sorta like the coin in Monkey Island 3
Wow people you get obsessed over one thing. I think the whole point of this screencast and audience are people that are interested on the inside of plasma and maybe helping out (Aaaron spends some time showing the code of the plasmoid). I also feel bad for the fact that so many people are making statements based on the initial work by Ruphy. I say before we make any assumptions we should wait until more work is done and wait to try it out. The beauty of this things is that plasma if becoming a wonderful thing and it makes it easier to create I all of this kind of things. This is only the beginning and I would suggest everyone to read the linux.com article (http://www.linux.com/feature/114560) to see where this project is going. I think taht the icon on icon workflow will work well once the ZUI and live objects are implemented.
You know. I never said that it looks bad or that it’s pointless nor did I deny that having a solid framework is going to be important.
Just because I’m not sitting here drooling over it, people are jumping all over me, acting offended.
Isn’t KDE4 supposed to be released in 4 months? And development has been going on for years.
I’m just underwhelmed by what they have to show up so close to a release date.
I do know they are probably just now finishing the pieces up and starting to put them together. But if you factor in QA, an October release date starts to look unrealistic. Something just doesn’t fit here to me.
Again, I’m not saying it sucks. I’ve heard the word “revolutionary” thrown around liberally in the past in regards to KDE4. Then things like this are shown, which are only evolutionary at best, and it’s hard to excited. That’s not to say, though, that it won’t be good, useful, etc.
Go ahead though, continue to get offended that I’m not all over this.
Edited 2007-06-22 15:28
sappyvcv,
I am sorry I did not meant you. I totally respect your point of view. I was talking about the people that make harsh comments that have no intentions other than offend and put down the project. I think you are right plasma is not going to be fully finish for 4.0 release if you read the articles you can see that a lot of work is going to be done for the 4.1 and probably 4.2 release. What you are seeing now is only the beginning.
The revolutionary aspects for 4.0 are under the hood, and no one on the KDE team has ever pretended otherwise.
Did you watch the 8 minute video on Data Engines? That stuff is a dream come true for widget and UI developers. Also, the fact that it is leaner and more elegant in its architecture is another big step forward – especially when you compare it to the bloat of the DE of a certain other OS…If you want to talk underwhelming, just look at Vista.
For Linux bling, we already have Beryl/Compiz – KDE 4.0 is about laying the foundation for a better desktop environment, not one with more bling. You may not get it, but as a KDE user I do, and I can’t wait for KDE4 (though I may wait until 4.1 to use it on my main system…)
Yes, architecture and frameworks are very important. I have no doubt that what is under the hood will prove to be far more exciting down the road than what they’ve shown so far. I just wish they would better leverage these things at this point in the timeline to be able to show the world what they can do.
Like I’ve said, Vista has some of the same issues. From the looks, it can be underwhelming (to me), but it’s the meat under the hood that makes it exciting (for developers mainly).
I just wish they would better leverage these things at this point in the timeline to be able to show the world what they can do.
Well, I think you want to go and have a look at some of the presentations. I don’t see anyone else leveraging context specific icons to let us all know just what the hell is going on.
Sorry, but I just didn’t see Microsoft’s people having a real discussion about how to improve the way that current desktops, and Windows, do things and how to provide better feedback to users, amongst other things. All I saw them do was have an argument for five years between the kernel (quite what the kernel people have to do with a user interface is anyone’s guess), desktop and usability people in order to get about seven different ways of logging out, shutting down and restarting a computer. That is not a demo, by the way.
From that point of view, I just find it as rich as treacle syrup for people to be jumping up and down about deadlines when it comes to KDE 4.
I actually like the interactive icons, so long as the usual actions still apply it could be very nice. Lots of people never even touch the context menu’s (right click stuff). This could easily add some of that functionality usually found buried in the context menu right up front, so long as, like I said, the usual actions still apply.
It sounds like aseigo is working hard to make it easy to use as well, which is good!
This may make a lot of sense actually, though the idea seems a bit odd since like Aaron said in some post before, we’ve never tried it, never used it, and won’t really know how good/bad it is until we have used it.
Desktop widgets is the latest fashion, but they do not offer any significant productivity improvement.
Would I would like to see is a fundamental change in the way computing is delivered…something that makes productivity skyrocket. As it is right now, most time is spent in managing computers than actually doing meaningful tasks.
For example, file management should not exist. The computer should show me the files, instead of me searching for them.
Any truly new ideas there?
It’s not a truly new idea, but Nepomuk will change the way you work with information on your system, once it is fully fleshed out.
In terms of workflow, files and data can be associated with specific projects or tasks and information will be intuitively linked together based not only content but it’s origin/purpose. It won’t replace the need for files/folders, but it will ideally reduce the dependence on having to dig through them or rely on simple index-based searches to find content.
So they’re doing stuff there, just don’t expect to see monumental change in 4.0, the focus right now is on the framework.
Besides, there’s never a truly new idea in technology nowadays. Most new ideas are usually extensions or evolutions of existing ideas, processes or implementations. But that’s not a bad thing.
heya,
Just skimming through the first few articles, and I’m already getting tired…lol…
Seriously folks, there’s a difference between offering constructive criticism advice, and lambasting this as “oh noes, it sucks, users will get lost, KDE4 is overhyped” etc.
I’m sure aseigo is more than happy to take criticism when it’s well-meaning (and I think his and the KDE record speaks for itself), and even take it when it’s not so well meaning.
But seriously, to the pathetic, childish idiots, “I’ved clocked up hours”, “been fixing computers since I was 16″…please…don’t think you’re oh so special because gosh, you can use a computer.
This is OSAlert, for crying out loud. I know for a fact there’s people much better than me here, no matter how good I might think my computer/programming/UI-design/whatever prowess is.
And last, to the boasters, why not put your money where your mouth is? Seriously, do even half the work that open-source contributes like asegio do, and people might take you seriously. Or just do a mockup of what you *think* it should be like…
cya,
Victor
Aaron Siego: 3,289,154,986,253
Kroc: 0
Thanks for playing!
Wouldn’t it be better to have say the icons appear on rollover of the main icon, at the bottom of the main icon?
Almost in their own context menu thingy?
Think of it as the ‘right-click’ menu that appears when you right-click on an icon (with various actions), but one which appears on rollover?
Just an idea.
I just think the icon in an icon thing, makes mouse usage even more excessive.
All main icons should still be able to be double clicked to open, and single clicked to rename – keep the basics, then add the stuff on top.
I can’t wait to see what KDE4 has to offer. Unfortunately, I doubt I will be convinced.
The problem with Linux desktop isn’t the lack of imagination (Compiz/Beryl already beats Quartz and DWM in term of features) but the lack of usability. Really simple things are yet to be done. Here’s my short list:
1- Fonts. Seriously, fonts themselves can keep me away from using a Linux desktop. Come to OSAlert with Mandriva, Fedora, SUSE or Ubuntu LiveCD. It’s just plain ugly.
First of all, open source fonts are NOT good. Some people tried to convince me that it wasn’t true but failed to do so. Bitstream Vera/DejaVu fonts are just unreadable. Abusing of anti-aliasing/sub-pixel hinting won’t solve the problem. I use Ubuntu with a 17″ CRT, a 19″ LCD and a widesreen laptop LCD and on all these monitors, fonts give me headache. Honestly, my head starts hurting after a few minutes. My eyes cant stand Sub-pixel hinting.
Fonts should never be anti-aliased unless they are really large and/or bold. Sub-pixel hinting is NOT a good way to render fonts. I DO SEE ALL THE R/G/B pixels around each character all the time. I tested it with many different LCDs, with different configs, etc. Sub-pixel hinting is bad. For the record, I don’t use ClearType on Windows. To me, classic Windows fonts are the best. They are readable and non anti-aliased (unless it makes sense to do so).
However, the problem is that you cant use open source fonts without at least anti-aliasing them. Otherwise, they look like garbage on the screen.
Yes, I can partially fix the problem (and I do) by removing all open source fonts and copying MS fonts over (and not forget to turn on the bytecode interpreter). But there are issues. Even if I use MS fonts, they dont look like they do on Windows. Part of the problem is libfreetype/fontconfig. The other part of the problem is X/fontconfig inability to deal correctly with screen DPI. In other word, why would I wait for new features if I can’t even browse the web without getting headache?
2- Design and desktop metaphor. KDE has no desktop metaphor. It’s just a huge amount of feature-packed applications. A good DE needs a desktop metaphor and a good design around it. Windows 95 and BeOS are good example of simple DE that made sense to people. Usability is more than having a theme engine, desktop compositing, 1000 icons set and 10000 themes. I would rather get a DE with one good static theme than one with 10000 alternative themes. I’m not a huge fan of theming by the way. Theming never solves problems. KDE folks should sit and define what’s a simple generic toplevel window. What kind of visual objects should be used in a “generic” window. Etc. Going back often make people realize that they were wrong since the beginning. Most KDE applications are bloated in term of widgets used in a single window. They include a dozen toolbars, 1000 different buttons/icons, too much menu items, weird config panels, etc.
3- I might finish my list later, it’s becoming pretty large
You can make Linux font rendering the same as Windows when disabled or on standard, just not cleartype, so I’m not sure what your gripe is here.
Well you can get libfreetype2 to render Microsoft fonts “like” Windows when the method to smooth edges of screen fonts is disabled. However, I use that “standard” method to smooth edges of screen fonts on Windows and there’s no equivalent on Linux. Turning on anti-aliasing doesn’t do the trick. I don’t know how Microsoft is doing that but their fonts look awesome.
And I said “like” Windows because it’s not actually true. Windows use a fixed DPI setting (96 dpi) [one can change it to 120 dpi to get bigger fonts]. Linux does not. Actually, Xorg has its own DPI setting thru DisplaySize. Fontconfig has its own DPI setting as well. Some applications like Mozilla* (Firefox, Thunderbird, etc) have their own DPI setting (layout.css.dpi), etc. The result is that almost every parts of my Desktop (until I fix everything by hand) render fonts differently because the renderer does not use the same DPI value.
Still, it’s more complicated than that. libfreetype2 seems to render fonts differently than Windows from the start. For a given DPI setting (like 96dpi), some fonts appear way to big (Times New Roman, Verdana) and some fonts appear way too small (Courier New, Tahoma). I can’t get Tahoma to be exactly like it is on Windows when I’m using it on Linux. When I browse the web, this has a huge impact too. For example, monospaced stuff is always way too small (remember, I said Courier New rendered too small). Mozilla* also has known issues about font rendering. For exemple, when you adjust the DPI setting with layout.css.dpi, you realize that bigger is the DPI, smalller are the fonts, vice-versa. That doesn’t make sense and nobody at Mozilla seems to care.
Of course you forgot to say that your comments were all subjective huh? Because to me, my fonts in Ubuntu shit all over windows on my twin 19″ lcd’s, what’s more I have more control over how I want to display them.
It’s true that some distro’s have shocking fonts out of the box and I don’t know why that is. But a quick web search soon turns up a million ways to make them beautiful again
And although I agree with you for the present KDE desktop, KDE is not the only choice, there are others that leave windows for dead in terms of usability, but alas, too much choice can confuse people I suppose.
3- I might finish my list later, it’s becoming pretty large
Don’t bother, for everything you list, a thousand people can counter list you and it’s all been said before.
You bring up a number of good points, which are all completely true.
No surprise that because you ‘told it like it is’ with regards the issues with KDE and XWindows’s pathetic font management, you got modded down!
OSAlert… The next slashdot in the making seemingly.
Hum, I watched the screencast and I guess I missed something. Sub icons within the main icon which allows the user to lauch an app and open the document. Well, I’m sorry but I really missed something here. I’ve been able to do that for ages with a single icon without the new sub icons. I do understand other corners’icons can be used for other purposes so I’ll wait to see what this new feature has to offer. But so far, I’m not really impressed by that precise feature although I see lot of exciting things coming soon along with kde4.
Another thing is I don’t use icons much and certainly not for documents on my desktop. Of course, I might one of these days but for now, my only icons on desktop are: big ones for the kicker/panel, my drives, two or three folders and a few apps, and small icons in the system tray. Now, for konqueror (as file manager) or dolphin, I never use the ‘icon view’. I have been using ‘detailed list view’ for years. I know most screenshots out there show nice (or less nice lol) icons in konqueror but frankly even if ‘some’ icons are cool I don’t see the interest to have a few icons when I can have much more info within the same space in a much more elegant way. And frankly, I don’t think I’m the only one in that case.
Anyway keep up the good work kde team and please, please, keep it simple and pure, do not overload the beast
Hi
Please stop telling us what do “you” use and how do “you” interact with your files.
You dont like this, ok, dont use it.These Sub-Icons are something new.they are not replacing any other functionality, they are Added, so nobody will not Lose anything else.you want Small icons, ok they could be small, resize them.
and Im sure most these negative comments are because:
a)People have not tested it yet
b)Change is hard.in all of the world, Files and Icons look similiar, so now Plasma changed it, its a little hard to accept it.
and about the Kroc:
Please stop offending.he tried to share knowledge.its not the boxing ring.