Submitted by Sun seeks to apply the lessons of Linux and turn open source Solaris into an operating system to rival Linux and to be as commonly used as Java. Sun Microsystems has ambitious plans for the commercial and open-source versions of its Solaris operating system, hoping to achieve for Solaris the kind of ubiquity already enjoyed by Java. In addition, Sun released Update 4 for Solaris 10 (also called Solaris 08/07), introducing a major enhancement in its OS virtualization technology called Solaris Containers.
Sun may talk the talk, but a quick visit to the “Open” Solaris page shows that they still require me to register before they’ll show me any download links. They still don’t quite get it.
It’s a shame, because Solaris is really interesting, and could be a genuine “third option” alongside Linux and the BSDs — if only Sun would just be brave enough to let go properly.
They do get it. However, they are under *legal requirements* from third parties (such as BitStream) to know who they are distributing Solaris to, thus they must have you register first before showing any download links.
Project Indiana’s goal is to create an OpenSolaris distribution that will not be shackled by these legal restrictions. It will be freely redistributable via whatever method suits individuals.
Look for initial availability at the beginning of next year with early release samples coming this fall.
It has nothing to do with Sun being “brave enough to let go properly” and everything to do with proper legal process.
You always have the option of using one of the community OpenSolaris distributions, in the meantime, that are made of only freely redistributable components.
Edited 2007-09-04 18:33 UTC
I think they do get it.
Sun’s success is due hardware and support services. Solaris is merely a tool to drive these.
A lot of what can be done in Solaris can be done in Linux but people choose Sun, in my view, for very solid and innovative hardware, as well as support services.
True, but its even more than that; software and services have higher margins – hardware has razor thin, in many case they’re sold at a loss to win business. Sun’s drive is to get their GP to atleast 10% – that is where it’ll come into play.
The great thing is; giving away their software for free is the cheapest form of marketing; give people the first hit and they’re addicted. It would be nice to see Dell get onboard and officially support Solaris – but it isn’t key to Sun’s success.
Agreed. Clueless. Also, the goal of being as popular as Linux is not exactly shooting for the moon, I mean what happened to aim high?
i have a lot of faith in opensolaris and i really really hope it becomes all the thigns sun says it will because it would make a killer desktop are well as (and we allknow this) an amazing server platform
… Sun is learning from it’s mistakes of the past. Sun’s willingness to change it’s development model has got to be one of the best ideas they have had in years.
I’m also glad they have Murdock on board. Just check out this comment.
Sounds like a good action plan for getting people on board.
When I first started administering Solaris, I was a bit put off with the unavailability of good GUI config tools. Obviously, Sun’s online documentation helped in enabling me to quickly overcome that step and start editing text config files. There are good GUI config tools that come preinstalled but they are not easy to find as they are no links to them on the desktop. Hopefully, this barrier to mass adoption will be addressed in project Indiana.
I know many Solaris admins don’t want the OS to turn into a Linux clone but the idea of creating multiple distributions to tailor for more tastes sounds like a bonus to me. I would never run OpenSolaris on a server, that’s what the enterprise version is for, But a more bleeding edge distribution I could well see myself running on the desktop, something I am loathed to do today.
Here is to a one CD, desktop friendly Solaris distro!
The best thing to do look at is SXCE (Solaris Express Community Edition) which is a great ‘preview’ of whats to come.
Network Magic for example, currently Phase 0 is merged, Phase 1 will address almost all the outstanding gripes I have the current implementation.
Intel has how got a dozen programmers dedicated to Solaris driver support, so expect to see 4965 support plus improved support for their other devices by the end of this year.
The problem is that for alot of people here, just because there aren’t people jumping out the isles screaming slogans, doesn’t make OpenSolaris any less vibrant or exciting.
B71 of Nevada has been released, so its available for download via http://opensolaris.org/sxce_dvd
to be as commonly used as Java.
Someone at Sun should tell the directives some day that Java has failed to become “commonly used”. I’ve been using Linux for years and I’ve never installed a java VM, and I’ve never used a program that required me to use Java. I only have found a page that required me to use java, and it was a page with small games programmed with java.
Jave gets used a lot internally in many companies and as server-side language in web servers…but come on, I hope they’re targetting a bit highter than java’s level of usage.
BTW: Linux has also been “challenging” solaris – for now, the fight is “1-0”, with linux as winner. Personally I doubt Solaris can “challenge” linux supremacy in the FOSS field: Opensource is mostly about X.org, gnome, kde, firefox…..ie: things that will run in solaris just as well, there’re not many incentives to change just to get the same.
Edited 2007-09-04 17:53
There is more to the computing world then desktop users.
In the embedded space, java is unchallenged, and in the business space, .net is only just starting to make some inroads into a completely java dominated market. There are far more programmers whose job is to develop on java then any other language. Just because as a desktop user you don’t come in contact with it that often, doesnt mean that it doesnt have a collosal install base. In fact, home use is more setting their sights lower rather then higher, considering the embedded market compared to the home desktop market.
Again, you are looking at it from the perspective of a linux desktop home user, which puts you in less then 1% of the market. UNIX is not about x, or gnome, or firefox. It is about throughput, stability, and security. Linux has wiped many UNIXs off the map, Solaris is one of the few that has stayed strong, as it is probably the most advanced OS on the market. Last time I checked, you weren’t able to hotswap a CPU on linux.
Again, you are looking at it from the perspective of a linux desktop home user, which puts you in less then 1% of the market. UNIX is not about x, or gnome, or firefox. It is about throughput, stability, and security. Linux has wiped many UNIXs off the map, Solaris is one of the few that has stayed strong, as it is probably the most advanced OS on the market. Last time I checked, you weren’t able to hotswap a CPU on linux
You must have checked a long time ago, then, because you can hotswap CPUs on Linux for a long time. That really doesn’t require much “advanced functionality” from the software at all. That myth is probably because the hardware actually is more exotic and nobody would think to do it in their home systems.
You’d want to be careful with that claim. Linux has many areas that rival or better solaris, and many other operating systems like AIX or mainframes have pretty advanced functionality too.
Edited 2007-09-04 18:40
I agree with most of your comment, just wanted to add that cpu hotswap/hotplugging is indeed possible on linux.
Just google for it: http://www.google.com/search?q=linux+cpu+hotplugging .
I fail to see what CPU hotswaping has to do with it’s challenge to linux desktop wise. Sun have some good server orientated hardware/software but for hardware support on the desktop it’s not even close.
Sun may have the toys but turning them into a desktop linux killer I fail to see.
Just a question: what hardware support is missing from Solaris that prohibits you from installing it?
“Last time I checked, you weren’t able to hotswap a CPU on linux.”
Please check again.
Of course you can’t hotswap a CPU (or memory) on most Linux systems, but that’s just because the hardware itself doesn’t allow it.
If this were to be a pissing contest, then Solaris would loose to the 1024-CPU SGI monsters running Linux.
There are far more programmers whose job is to develop on java then any other language.
Really? I didn’t know that. Where did you get this information from? I’m genuinely curious.
It was actaully released by Microsoft; Java was at the top then it was Visual Basic, C++, C then ‘misc’ right at the end.
Its easy to say, ‘more programmers’ when there could be a number of programmers who contribute nothing outside a small widget. Numbers are nice, but if they’re not using these technologies for something substantial, its like counting the number of people who like to eat jelly beans – completely pointless.
I was at a borland convention thing a little while ago and the dude quoted that, I forget where his source was though.
considering alot of places don’t even teach c++ anymore, and what the job posting sites look like, I never really thought to double check his facts.
Where Sun is going with this, it’s not like Linux companies or making tons of profit from distros and from what I gather Sun need all the help it can get with cash flow.
So what do Sun want, desktop share because currently it’s barely a blip on the map. I dont see OpenSolaris threatening Linux anytime soon.
The thing is, Sun started out making UNIX technical workstations, then lost the desktop to MS and, later on, the UNIX workstation to Linux. After the dotcom bubble burst, they shrank to one of the last ‘Big Iron’ UNIX server manufacturers. Regaining some of that workstation market diversifies they’re revenue stream and has got to be a plus.
They are also talking about developing an embeded version of Solaris. Shows they can see which way the market is going these days.
Finally, a well informed comment on this thread.
It actually shows quite a bit of foresight on their part. Linux isnt quite at the same point as solaris is on the server yet, but it will be eventually, and when it is, sun is screwed. They need to act now.
Honestly, if they actually succede in community building, this is one of the few possible linux-killers I can see right now.
And my other post was not good!?!
Yea, about the Linux killer thing, I agree. If Solaris can build a strong, enthusiastic community they may be able to provide a strong front against the Linux hoards. IMO, I good thing as competition is what we need, not another 10 years of stagnation.
I also fully agree with your assessment Java and of Sun wanting to make Solaris as common as Java. The install base and developer community for Java is huge. Just look at the amount of job postings for Java devs.
I fail to see where Sun is going with this
Sun under Schwartz is a prototypical 21st-century post-industrial corporation. There is no “product” per se. The product is the brand, and the brand drives revenue.
Sun has decided that, although dozens of vendors have been able to capitalize on the success of the Linux brand, their Solaris and Java brands are more promising business assets.
The differentiation problem for Sun is that the primary decision-making factors in selecting a platform solution are application compatibility and certification. In these respect, Solaris and Linux will have about a 98% intersection.
Therefore, Sun will attempt to make their mark down at the kernel level. To overcome the boring and arcane nature of kernel architecture, Sun will rely on an image-centric business model based on messaging and positive associations.
But they will face a considerable challenge going up against the Linux brand. It’s an underdog story with notes of freedom, collaboration, empowerment, value, and potential. For better or worse, Linux is the evocative embodiment of the free software movement.
Sun will have to work within the framework of a Linux brand that is strong, popular, and well-connected. Name one company that achieved positive brand development by attacking Linux. Name one company that committed suicide by attacking Linux.
Promoting the Solaris brand as an alternative to Linux will require a fair bit of finesse and needle-threading. Clarifying where the Java brand fits into the equation will be a challenge as well. But capitalizing on these brands may be the biggest challenge.
The great brand-driven corporations of the past and present have one thing in common: the brands became a part of the collective social consciousness. McDonald’s, Coca-Cola, Nike, Sony. Everybody knows these brands and can conjure a personification either consciously or subconsciously.
But Solaris and Java are all but invisible to the vast majority of society. They really only have meaning to those of us who are involved in the IT industry. Can a corporation survive on a brand-centric business model when they don’t interact with society as a whole?
There is no question that Sun is boldly exploring IT capitalization in a post-proprietary software ecosystem. I just don’t see how the Solaris and Java brands are such powerful marketing vehicles. They seem more like liabilities to me, introducing another layer of uncertainty and fragmentation into the free software ecosystem.
It seems that Sun could have built a much more powerful brand around Linux, marketing a product with a more sophisticated kind of enterprise polish than found in Red Hat or Novell distributions. They could have really stood out from the crowd with their experience and vision.
Most importantly, they could have achieved ubiquity with their technologies such as ZFS, DTrace, and Containers. As Schwartz says time and time again, their business model is adoption first, revenues later. It seems that the commitment to the Solaris brand has impeded these efforts.
As I’ve said before, the tragedy of OpenSolaris is the dreaded license fragmentation. The Solaris and Linux communities should be working together in the true spirit of free software. It seems kind of silly for brand warfare to get in the way of progress.
Allright, but let me ask this for illustration: how would you call Ubuntu based on potential GPL-ed Solaris? Linux is more a buzzword than a brand and I don’t think it has passed any irreversible threshold in popular acceptance. And these people are educated in projecting images while the owner of a Linux brand seem to be a tech-dwarf.
On the other way, seeing this as a battle would really hurt everybody. Let’s see it as an opportunity to unite and build what we have from standardized OS kernels to happy endings for everybody.
how would you call Ubuntu based on potential GPL-ed Solaris?
I believe you’d call it Nexenta GNU/OpenSolaris, wouldn’t you?
http://www.gnusolaris.org/
Butters is talking about branding and in that respect your proposition is unacceptable as it would dilute every included symbol. The obvious answer is: Ubuntu. And my reason for pointing it out is to show that there is not much value in branding core operating system functionality.
Now, what is Linux? It is diluted for sure. And what is the percentage of people who can tell the difference between some future version of Nexenta, Ubuntu and a desktop BSD?
Think … services, perhaps?
“Where Sun is going with this, it’s not like Linux companies or making tons of profit from distros and from what I gather Sun need all the help it can get with cash flow. ”
well, sun’s probably not making much money from solaris. they can either watch solaris die. or they can try to turn it into an open source project and watch it thrive. and try to make money off it.
Does the new opensolaris allow you to update for free or is it like solaris 9 where you have to pay to get the recommended patch cluster?
//Buzzzz
No, you can download new builds for free and then run the upgrade option in the installer. Just like Solaris 10 update releases.
If you’re talking about a “live update” feature where you have online network repositories, etc. No, for technical reasons, they don’t have that yet for OpenSolaris (or Solaris Express) releases.
For Solaris 10, you can get security updates and hardware updates plus the basic update clusters for free.
Does the new opensolaris allow you to update for free …?
This is my biggest frustration too. I installed Solaris Express Nevada build 50 at home a while ago because I’ve never used Solaris but I want to develop that skill so I’m well rounded and more valuable.
But I searched endlessly to find how I would get updates without paying for support. Never found an answer, not even a negative answer.
I also tried Belenix, but it currently seems to have problems with P3s–the only machines I have available to experiment with right now.
It sounds like Indiana is going to address these problems and more. I’m looking forward to it.
You can’t get “live” updates even if you pay for support (which is developer support only for the Express editions afaik). Currently, Sun has no technical mechanism in place to support “live updates” for the “beta” and “testing” releases of Solaris.
You can download new versions of Solaris (including the “Express” releases) for free, and then use the upgrade mechanism built into the installer.
It is inconvenient; but it is free.
It is admittedly hard to find answers about something that doesn’t exist
Edited 2007-09-04 21:36
It is admittedly hard to find answers about something that doesn’t exist
OK, I accept your answer about the non-availability of updates. But in the GNU/Linux world, regular security and bug-fix updates are available in RPM and debian formats for a large number of distros and also in a few other formats for smaller distros.
Then there is the selection of update software: synaptic, aptitude, yum, urpmi, etc. The capability and availability are central and expected part of GNU/Linux.
Now that Sun is so publicly competing with GNU/Linux (which is therefore now the standard for comparison) and since Buzzzz and I both wondered about it in these few comments, it’s surely worth mentioning in public documentation that said updates don’t exist. In fact I think the question easily qualifies as a frequently asked question.
Remember that in a corporate environment, especially on mission critical servers, administrators don’t necessary want updates to be installed automatically. Because if it ends up breaking something, it could cost the company a lot of money!
..and all of those things are available if you are using a *supported* version of Solaris. Such as Solaris 10.
Solaris Express releases are “testing” or “beta” releases and are “unsuppported.”
For some of most well known ones yes, but some of the originals still don’t have them. See Slackware as an example
This I can agree with. I’ve never understood, why, for example, the update program that is useable by Solaris 10 is included with Solaris Express releases since it doesn’t function at all.
Be aware that Sun never said what the article is implying “OpenSolaris Will Challenge Linux.” Rather, the author of the original article is making implications based off statements from Sun.
This is not OSAlert’ fault, but rather that of the original article’s author.
One could imply that by its existence, it is a challenge to Linux, but the same can be said of every other operating system: BSD, Windows, etc.
Edited 2007-09-04 18:28 UTC
<sarcasm>
That’s like me saying Plan9 will challenge MS Windoze. lol.
</sarcasm>
But all jokes aside I do find OpenSolaris interesting, I’ll wait until they perfect it better, with more apps, etc. before installing it on a machine.
You may want to take a look at some of the new more ambitious feats most of the up and coming OSes are striving for … it may turn out to be dramatic irony.
instead of sun fighting linux they should embrace each other with open arms, work as interopably as possible. and fight MS.
or am i just being wishfull?
“To wish is not the same to be able to”. I’ve read this say somewhere, I don’t remember now. Anyways, good luck dudes.
From my perspective as a linux desktop user, it wont make much difference.
Either my apps run on a linux kernel or a solaris kernel. but they will be the same apps, same window manager, same X11… etc.
So either way it wont make all that much difference,
As to weather I use OpenSolaris, thats like choosing a distribution.
However unless there is a really good reason to change I wouldnt, Iv got a few binary only apps and my hardware config works great on linux, so there is no pressing reason to change,
Im also not going to use the enterprise focused stuff Solaris has to offer. like virtualization, zfs. etc.
Edited 2007-09-04 20:29
You haven’t realized the potential of zfs and such, on desktop, but that’s not your fault, because greatest potentials have not been implemented yet
Give it another year.
the problem with trying to beat linux is that linux doesn’t really have any direction or cohesion. it sucks in any technology it thinks is cool. It tries to be everything to everyone and it’s able to “worse is better” it’s way into actually being everything for everybody.
it’s a desktop system, a real time system, an embedded system, a server system, has good vertical and horizontal scalability etc.
there’s no lesson to learn from linux other than “people like things”
that they’re full of #$%&.
Sorry, Sun.
I will challenge OpenSolaris to have a distro that isn’t broken and that I can boot from.
Seriously, I downloaded and tried 3 different OpenSolaris “Distros”.
Has it ever happened with Linux that a bug got so widespread that every distro there is would be unbootable on certain processors?
With Linux there are always distros that move ahead and say “screw it, get a new processor”, then there are other distros which stay behind knowing that it would break one someone’s machine.
To me, the fact that there is a known bug that prevents machiens without SSE from booting in every OpenSolaris distro there is, is preposterous.
If it takes a week or two they should fix it, if it takes more they should revert back to the old assembler and not leave shit code out there for it to travel down stream to every single distro there is.
My forum posting:
http://www.opensolaris.org/jive/thread.jspa?threadID=38099&tstart=1…
The bug that prevents me from booting:
http://bugs.opensolaris.org/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=6332924
Anyway, that was my experience, or lack of, with OpenSolaris. They need to change their mindset if they want to compete seriously with Linux.
Solaris is not about to compete with Linux on the desktop front. Linux desktop market share is still only pathetic despite the pretty nice experience of today’s desktop distributions. I’ve tried Solaris on the desktop and it’s not even close.
Solaris on the server may or may not get the revival Sun hopes. Other competing OSes have similar features and are porting others. FreeBSD 7 has ZFS and a DTrace port is being started. Linux is receiving ZFS via FUSE drivers and already has SystemTap, which is similar to DTrace in someways.
Bottom line: they are both *nix experiences (far more similar than not) and should realize that Windows is the OS to beat, not other *nix offerings. I think it will require far more than feature parity/rivalry to convince businesses to switch from one *nix to another, especially if they have already migrated from Unix to Linux.
Edited 2007-09-04 22:42
While I understand Sun’s proposal to compete with Linux is on the server market, will OpenSolaris benefit desktop users? Will there be developers willing to port all those drivers to the Solaris kernel? Is it possible to tweak the performance of Solaris to produce a better desktop environment? Considering Kolivas’ controversial comments, will Solaris create enough competition on the desktop market so top Linux developers will push for a more desktop-optimized kernel?
Will there be developers willing to port all those drivers to the Solaris kernel?
Actually, this may have a very beneficial impact on GNU/Linux which in turn helps OpenSolaris.
If hardware vendors start to see not only GNU/Linux, but OpenSolaris rising in popularity, they will have a growing reason to release an open source driver for at least one OS that can then be adapted or cloned for the other.
… to the actual challenge as far as I am concerned in lowering the barrier to entry in terms of access to Newbie friendly learning opportunities. I have always thought that Sun has some of the best technology out there, I have just always looked at it from the “I not cool enough the be a geek” point of view. The simple concept of package management still escapes me even now. Also I have never really ever gotten over my first attempt to install Solaris 8 (x86) …
If sun wants opensolaris to become a desktop competitor to even linux, which the later is still a rare desktop solution here in US; then they have to reach to the level of Ubuntu 7.04 at least in its graphical tools, updater, partitioner, applications availability, and other things. Last time I tried to install azureus on opensolaris 5.11.70 I have to compile to x86 packages; and I was unable to download and install alot of other important packages that I can install with a snap on Add/Remove Program on ubuntu.
Try adding a Linux supported network printer via lpd and it would fail; you can print via lp command on console session but you cannot print via firefox browser because it cannot see the console enabled printer!! in linux all I have to do is install the driver for the printer which is generic postscript and thats all the printer lpd://192.168.1.110/lp will need to start printing with no problems what so ever.
The statistics is taken from tiobe (written somewhere down there):
http://jsolutions.se/?p=160
Regarding Solaris. I use it for my home server. A modern Solaris distro is quite similar to a modern Linux, as Ubuntu. Everything got detected and installed correctly on my old [email protected], 1GB RAM. Sound, Nvidia, Samba, etc.
I use ZFS on 4 Samsung 500GB discs in raid-Z (no formatting is needed at all, plug in and go). At last I feel safe. No more worries about backing up or if a hard drive crashes. I unplugged a disc and booted, and everything went fine. I could read and write to the raid-Z. Then I plugged in the disc without hassle.
Here is a video, where he sets up a Raid-Z with USB sticks and then unplugs a few of those:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do…08442979626078
With this I have setup a Linux container on top of Solaris kernel (which is rock solid). I have made a linux template and configured it, and write protected it with ZFS (a snapshot, takes 1 sec) and I can deploy as many Linux zones as I want, in 1 sec. Every clone reads from the template but writes to it’s own dynamical growing file system. If something messes up I just delete the file system in 1 sec and clone it again in 1 sec. If I install Oracle, only the oracle files is written to the linux file system. Everything else is read from the linux template that is write protected.
This clone/deploy feature also exists for Solaris containers too. All clones takes 40MB RAM and 100MB disk space, and almost no CPU overhead. They started 1000 containers in 1GB ram. Each container is safe, a user in there can not break out. Each container has it’s own IP. This way I can run several versions of apache in each zone. There is only one kernel running, the Solaris kernel – very light weight. But I feel safe, the Solaris kernel has a very good reputation of being rock solid.
My next project now is setting up thin clients, SunRay. They contains no ram or cpu (i think). Each sunray is a small box that uses 4 Watt. I will upgrade server to quad core and 4GB ram and put the server down the basement. Then I have a few Sunrays on each floor in the house. This way I can stream MP3, films, etc. Several family members get their own user acc and can use the server too. Solaris is very similar to a modern linux. No problems for windows users. And so much safer and rock stable. A computer only for games too, but it will be shut down when not used. That way it doesnt matter if it makes sounds and draw lots of watts.
And no backups are needed, ZFS corrects all errors on the fly. I can correct errors that no hardware raid solutions can do. It is safer than HW raid, in fact.
Actually, for a computer geek this is so cool I almost jump out of the window. (True histor: A missionary had a monkey that piss inside the bungalow, the missionary smacked the ass and throwed the monkey out of the window. The monkey was a fast learner; it pissed inside and smacked itself on the ass and jumped out of the window).
Looking at Ian Murdock’s blog today I found this:
http://ianmurdock.com/2007/09/05/wheres-the-war/
Ian mentions the very article that has a lot of people in a lather here is missing eight paragraphs!
The original article:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/infoworld/20070831/tc_infoworld/91468_1
As in other articles posted in a variety of places, it seems the actual message gets lost in the shuffle. The end result is the message in the Yahoo! News is totally different than the shortened Computerworld piece.
Edited 2007-09-05 15:11
openJDK is not JDK7: http://today.java.net/pub/a/today/2007/08/09/looking-ahead-to-java-…
I’m interested in what redhat will do about this over the next few months. Seems to me like they are stuck between a rock and hard place, i.e. Sun-Java and mono. How enterprise worthy(ready) is/will be openjdk (icedtea)?
OpenSolaris will challenge Linux, and it will fail. It’s simple:
If something excellent appears in OpenSolaris, Linux will soon copy it, mimic it, or learn from it, but not always vice versa, mostly because of community size.
:p
Linux has a lot of drivers now, but OpenSolaris has a lot of potential due to its stable API/ABI and the fact that it’s not GPL’d. Vendors can write their drivers and worry less about it being broken by x-patch or version 2.6.27.183 AND they can keep the driver closed-source if they feel that it’s very important (although they do this anyway on Linux with Linus’s blessing…). If OpenSolaris looks like a viable free UNIX alternative to Linux on the desktop, I’d expect vendors to OpenSolaris more attractive than Linux. Of course, OpenSolaris has to achieve a certain threshold before any floodgates potentially open, but it’s something that makes me wonder if OpenSolaris doesn’t have a better chance of challenging Windows in the long-term, especially considering that everything outside the Linux kernel can just as easily applied to OpenSolaris as it can to Linux.