As you surely know by now, the latest hype on the web is stories, news, or supposedly new quotes regarding the potential availability of Windows XP after June 30th, when Microsoft will cease selling the seven year old operating system. The latest development? Big PC companies like Dell and HP have found a backdoor to keep on selling XP after 30 June. And no, it doesn’t involve Windows 2003.The Windows Vista End User License Agreement has this thing in it called “downgrade rights” – well, only the business and ultimate versions do, anyway. These rights basically mean that end-users may purchase the most recent version of Windows, but “continue to run run a previous version until they are ready to move to the new operating system version”. The trick employed by HP and Dell entails that they already perform the downgrade themselves, so the customer basically gets an XP machine with an already paid for Windows Vista Business/Ultimate license. This trick only works for XP Professional, as XP Home’s license does not have downgrade provisions. There’s a cool new term for it too: pre-upgrade machines. The linguist in me loves that term so much.
There are quite a few catches to all this, though. The biggest one I’ve seen is that Microsoft states in a FAQ about downgrade rights for OEMs:
Q. Can I ship media for the downgrade software system as well as most recent version they are using to downgrade from?A. No – downgrade media is provided by the end customer.
Seeing you actually do need an XP Pro license to exercise downgrade rights, I am a bit puzzled by how Dell and HP can do this for you – do you need to mail them your XP Pro license and disk? Does this also mean you cannot use this backdoor to buy an additional computer with a new XP installation, that you plan to use alongside your current installation of XP Pro?
News.com mentions another limitation: seeing customers need to actually request the downgrade to XP, how is this going to work in ordinary retail stores? “While companies can offer pre-downgraded machines via their Web site, things get a little more complicated when it comes to buying a PC at retail stores. It may be possible for customers to buy such a machine, but just how this will work – and if stores will offer such an option – is not totally clear.”
As long as customers continue to create enough demand for Windows XP, PC companies will continue to find ways around the end-of-sales date of Windows XP. This is a cat-and-mouse game where it is difficult to predict if either the cat, or the mouse wins. Microsoft is a big player, but its power relies heavily on the willingness of its OEMs. The OEMs, however, are reliant on Microsoft too: people buying computers want Windows.
I repeat what I said last time. If you really want a computer running XP so badly after 30 June, try to buy a computer without an operating system pre-installed, and try to get your hands on a copy of Server 2003, which will remain available for a while. You can use the 180-day free trial to already familiarise yourself with it while trying to find a valid license (I’ve got 177 days left). It’s better than XP, too, in my opinion.
I’m not sure what’s new about this. Every MS Office license that we purchase at my company is for 2007 Pro, yet we are installing 2003 Pro. It’s perfectly legal and validated by Microsoft. In fact, I think the purchase of an XP license allowed for legal installs of Windows 2000.
Correct, slap on a Vista Business sticker on the box and install XP Pro, 2k Pro or NT4 WS. No problem.
“Correct, slap on a Vista Business sticker on the box and install XP Pro, 2k Pro or NT4 WS. No problem.”
Or maybe ship with a new sticker?
Shipped with Windows XP Legacy [Version Here].
>> Windows Vista (Un)Capable <<
The problem is HAVING an XP disc to start with. If a PC noobie walks into a store today and buys Vista, they don’t have an XP CD like you. – And MS does not ordinarily ship XP with Vista, do they? That’s the problem.
This is the puspose of all the warez and torrent sites, isn’t it?
Big Entreprises still have XP Corporate (Volume Licence Key) CDs at hand. They don’t get them illegally from torrent sites. The problem is that they need a valid license to install a copy per machine. Now the only option to get a valid XP license is to buy Vista business then downgrade to XP pro.
Yeah, and that’s pretty much what we do. Although the term “downgrade” is a bit harsh considering we’re choosing to ignore Vista like a New York panhandler standing in Port Authority.
License is different you can not purchase a license for 2003 only current versions for Microsoft products but yes it is the license you would use for older products depending on the product. So Office 2007 is the correct licenese for 2003. Windows XP is different you can not purchase a license for it you should be purchasing OEM versions of Windows XP. You should be purchasing Windows 2003 or Windows 2008 license for Windows 2000 Server families whether for CAL’s or Devices.
Basically, the OS licensing we do is slightly convoluted…or at least it is to me. Maybe it’s SOP to other folks. We purchase a machine from our system builder that has an XP OEM license on it. It’s then ghosted with the copy of the Open License version of XP that we’ve purchased. According to MS it’s legit, not that it’s any big surprise. The license has been purchased, twice, almost.
Now with the advent of Vistard with MAC, and VLM (?), the world gets a whole lot more difficult.
Here’s the real reason MS won’t let anyone sell “bare” machines. Businesses with MS site/volume licenses would be glad to buy a no-OS Dell $50 cheaper, and they’d still be completely legal.
if you are a big business that has a site license and you buy a large number of PC’s (with I presume a OEM-windows-license ?) why don’t you send that OEM-license to Microsoft, they would have to give you 50 or 70 bucks per PC. Right ?
Microdoft doesn’t allow this. You have to get the refund from the OEM, which can be tedious and long, and more often than not a business isn’t going to go through the hassle.
For mass deployment, however, it’s usually easy to by the computer bare from most OEM.
Good question. And maybe we should look into it. Here’s the problem, though, if I think too much about Microsoft’s licensing, it makes my head want to explode….so that’s why I try not to overthink the process. And I’m sure that’s why they do it.
I don’t know exactly the definition for “Site License”. I assume it means we can pay so much up front and then install however many copies we like. I doubt we’ve got that unless an Open Volume License is the same thing. Don’t know how much it cost, it was purchased before I joined the group. I’m assuming it’s not the full $140.00 sticker price of a boxed version of XP Pro. The OEM XP sticker on every box and laptop allows us to copy whatever VL version Windows we want to it, from how it’s been explained to me.
I still find it funny that a company can’t build a system without installing an MS OS. Incredible. So what happens if you start a business that does just that? The feds come in and drag you to jail in Steve Ballmers basement?
And even if it weren’t, I don’t think anybody’s conscience is going to be pricked if they purchase a newer version of a product because the older version is no longer available and pirate the older version.
As far as businesses are concerned, from a legal standpoint, do you think MS is really going to drag some company into court for purchasing a Vista license and installing XP? That’s called a PR nightmare.
As for Vista, I really don’t see it as being all that bad. Though it certainly doesn’t have enough improvements to justify upgrading on an older machine, if you’re getting a brand new PC with decent specs, it should run just fine.
If the only reason you’d go through the trouble of downgrading to XP is to maintain compatability with some app that worked in XP and not in Vista, if it hasn’t been ported to Vista yet, it’s probably not going to be. So whether you do it now or later, you’re eventually going to have to ween yourself off of that app, so might as well be now.
Agreed, but we’re not willing to beta-test Microsoft’s half-shod crap because they say it’s “Released to Manufacturing”. Another thing, this little Service Pack 1 for Vista is nothing more than PR fodder to appease the IT managers whose policies dictate that no major OS upgrades will happen prior to a first service pack.
Get this, my company is just now ending the transition from Win2k to XP. Rushing into Vista isn’t anywhere in the 5 year plan. We’re still NT4 domain, for that matter. And, yes, that is changing soon….hopefully.
This way, they can drop support for XP while maintaining they would support it if their ‘customer feedback had indicated a demand for it’ – of course theres no demand for XP they are getting it as a ‘downgrade’ for free with their OEM Vista license, plus they get to count these installs of XP as demand for Vista.
I really think they’ve managed to alienate a big chunk of their users with Vista, and the old ‘customer feedback indicates no demand’ line is getting mighty old.
At least the new Macbook Pro i’m picking up one day soon won’t need any downgrades to be fast and functional.
This whole XP scenario is diabolically stupid.If the people want XP then give them XP.They are paying for it.
Edited 2008-04-27 01:24 UTC
Sure. Nothing else happening around. It could not get more boring…
The reason most people want XP on a new computer is that they hear a bunch of BS about Vista from somebody they know who read that BS on the internet from some idiot blogger who thinks he knows everything about computers. It’s getting ridiculous!
I’ve you’ve ever tried to do any kind of processor intensive work (be it a gamer or a music producer) then you’d quickly want to down grade your Vista instillation.
If you don’t believe me then try running Cubase / FL Studio / Ableton with a few dozen plug in’s in Vista for yourself.
Also, you have to bare in mind that Vista was designed for top-end machines and these days few users want to spend mega-bucks for a computer when all their going to do is surf the web, check their e-mails and type up the odd Word document. For users like these buying cheaper, lower spec’ed machines, XP preferable to Vista.
Edited 2008-04-27 11:54 UTC
…or they heard from someone like me who has been testing it at work for the past 8 months for simple things like email, and common office tasks. For doing those simple things in the home, the bloated Vista is fine. I tell them to treat it like a heart-attack patient. No over-use, don’t install a whole lot, and let the OS sit idle most of the time.
The only benefit that I’ve come across for running Vista is that it correctly hands out drive letters to USB flash drives. 12+ years later, and MS has “finally” adopted USB correctly. What an achievement. It’s not like they actually helped develop the USB standard….wait a minute. And, yes, DirectX 10….blah blah blah, whatever. Three cheers for bleeding edge graphics.
I’d say about 2/3 of the “BS” I read is unfavorable, and the other 1/3 either like Vista or are indifferent. Personally, I’ve worked on two Vista machines, and I find the interface (and that of Office 2007) a step backward. But that’s just me.
The real reason I haven’t gone to Vista is one of principle: An OS should not require 1GB or more of RAM to run. I just do not see enough added functionality to justify that bloat vis-a-vis XP. Add to that the seemingly layered-on hacks that essentially push the obligation of performance back onto hardware vendors (ReadyBoost, hybrid disk drives), rather than streamlining code…Vista just doesn’t sit well with me.
I hope Microsoft learns something (and gets some new management) for Windows 7.
Edited 2008-04-27 17:13 UTC
“You can use the 180-day free trial to already familiarise yourself with it while trying to find a valid license (I’ve got 177 days left). It’s better than XP, too, in my opinion.”
Especially the “trying to find a valid license” sounds a bit like intent to pirate the software. Given that Thom does not seem to have enough money to buy a new computer, I can’t see how he expect to obtain a Windows Server 2003 license. Of course, some friendly soul *might* give him one in the next 177 days or so but I doubt it.
My advice is that if you can’t afford to buy your software, then check out the free alternatives (either freeware or libre).Ubuntu 8.04 LTS is just out and getting used to a new OS beats pirating a proprietary/commercial one.
DISCLAIMER: I’m not syaing that Thom is pirating software – he is not. At least not for another 177 days or so. I just find myself to read between the lines that it might be his intent and advice to do so.
I just find myself to read between the lines of your comment to hang upside down a tree all week and drink blended strawberry fruitcakes. Doesn’t mean that’s actually what you meant to say.
Ever heard of eBay or something similar? The web edition is relatively affordable as new, too.
Edited 2008-04-27 11:32 UTC
Not that this has anything to do with the current article. Could you make a review of “project indiana” opensolaris for osnews.
Non-transferrable licenses and such aside, why would you want to spend more cash (if that really is your intent) on a used Server 2003 license when you obtain used XP licenses through ebay?
I bet that you in 176 days will not have a fully licensed Server 2003 installed on your computer. Then again, I’m hanging upside down in a tree and so forth…
Because I like Server 2003 more than I like XP?
Can you actually legally re-sell your licence on ebay? Just asking…
The EULA is a bit murky*:
On one end:
… On the other hand**,
But given the fact that:
… I wouldn’t try it.
– Gilboa
* Taken from my volume license XP/SP2 installation CD.
** AFAIK, most copies are marked for NFR.
If you don’t like the conditions of the licens and business practises of the software you are using. The best thing to do is, stop using it. Because as history shows us, microsoft has less and less an interrest in what their customers want.
If you are a company move your applications to the web (obviously it can be a comporate intranet) and make sure proper webstandards are supported by that product or to multiplatform applications (firefox, thunderbird).
The more you do that, the less dependent you are on that company in Redmond. So next time them come up with something you don’t like, you just tell them to go away.
Yeah, and while we’re at it we can switch to alternative energies, end famine and war, and dance around the campfire singing kumbaya.
Trust me, I’d love to see your philsophy put in motion where I work. The fact is that in most US companies, no one cares about IT. It’s viewed as only an expense and does nothing for bringing in profit. Change is difficult and it’s expensive in the eyes of upper management and accountants. I’ll be the first to admit that there’s a lot of pro’s to doing something like free OS, platform independence, yada-yada. Unfortunately, not only do the top brass have to be on board with footing the re-training bill, but also they have to have a bit of the hatred for MS. Realistically, that
s not going to happen. Management has bigger fish to fry, like selling product.
Bottom line is upper management (and 99% of the corporate user base) don’t care about platforms and licensing, and who’s monopolizing who. They want their s**t to work with the least amount of headache, and the least amount of thinking. They want to use tools and names familiar to them. And they don’t want to call helpdesk every hour when something doesn’t work, or when they can’t find the right button to push.
If by “Users” you are talking about people at home, you are right, they don’t care much about them. If you mean businesses, governaments, partners, and developers, it is hard to find a company that cares as much or does more for them then microsoft.
My company is very concerned about long-term archival storage of electronic data … I’m talking about being able to read it for 30 years or more, guaranteed.
For that we need at least format stability, and in addition we would like precisely documented formats, completely open and able to be implemented by any vendor. No “single-source” suppliers at all, and maximum cross-platform portability of all software as can be had. (In 30 years time, all current platforms will almost certainly be unavailable).
We need this is because our customers, in turn, want “sovereignty” over their own data (that they pay us to produce for them), and the projects we complete have a operational design life of 30 years or more. There are a lot of projects like this … every major building, for example, is designed to be operational for more than 30 years.
Microsoft doesn’t seem to want to do anything at all to help us.
you have to be joking. I know that you know about OOXML, are you just trying to troll or something?
This may be true for Windows Server 2K8.
But I fail to see what interest do business users (or developers) have in DRM, Aero and 95% of all of Vista’s new features.
Vista is predominantly an end-user OS. (Again, unlike Win2K8)
– Gilboa
The original comment was talking about the general attitude of the company. You are right that Vista as a whole had a big focus on end user features, but all that stuff (apart from some of the caching stuff) has been around for about 8 years or so on OSX. It is impressive when compared to XP (which was really built on obsolete technology for the client stuff out of the gate), but it really isn’t if you look at the competition.
The reality is the big changes in Vista are all under the hood. Pretty much all the APIs got a big overhaul to make them more modern, and easier to use. Even DX10, which was billed as a performance/quality improvement, is actually little more then a big API change.
The primary focus of MS has always been on its partners, ISVs, and large contracts. The home user market is more of an afterthought for them.
The best use of a 180 day trial period would be to get a quick fix in games while waiting for the new consoles to drop in price
(or waiting for the PS3 to get a few more games).
Tom never said why he needed Windows. Since he should have OSX (and possibly Linux), one has to guess a good reason. BTW, wine 1.0 should ship this summer
Edited 2008-04-27 10:16 UTC
The linguist in me thinks that good marketeers are the embodiment of linguistic genius.
My favorite would be “memory challenged”, to stay within computing spheres. I hope Vista will not be killed by XP’s “friendly fire” – now th~A!t’s a cool term.
(almost off-t.) I just installed Windows XP on Virtual Box on Linux, it runs and boots faster with ClamWin running than Vista Business did without any AV on the same machine when it had it all for itself.* So I thought I’d just virtually pre-upgradify it, you know.
Oh come now, Vista’s doing fine – its sales figures are just experiencing a little “negative growth.”
Well, apart from the fact that nothing’s wrong for MS as long as they can load whatever they want on any OEM’s machine.
It is kind of sad that this OS has become sort of the proverbial slowness, that must hurt a little bit at Redmond even though it doesn’t hurt them financially at all.
But now that we’re talking marketing speak, one of the most bizarre things coming from the Rdmnd Marketing Machine I thought was the “Ready Boost” thing. Haha. It isn’t ‘ready’, it doesn’t boost, all it sort of does is f**k up your flash drive.
I can actually imagine how they sat down and discussed, let’s give this thing a name and how shall we do that. Haha.
Negative growth! Good one. Like a “near miss”.
A book I recently read (Words Fail Us by Bob Blackburn) had a wonderful line:
“To me, the phrase ‘a near miss’ describes the proximity of an unmarried female.”
….makes more sense than the common definition.
My employer bought me a Dell laptop a while back. Dell sold it pre installed with XP but with some flavour of Vista business on DVD. We therefore have XP on it, but no install media. The key on the unit is for Vista, but it is supposedly compatible with XP too. I assume this is the way it is going to work.
There are a number of utilities out there that will interrogate your system and tel you what the license keys from Microsoft are installed.
NVIDIA does not provide the drivers.
Vista has better hardware support than 2003.
Gigabyte GA-K8NXP-SLI
AMD X2
NVIDIA 8400GS
Vista Ultimate has been fine for me. It is just video sometimes looks blocky for some strange reason even if I use overlay.
Edited 2008-04-27 11:58 UTC
XP drivers work just fine in 2003. I have NVIDIA too.
Thanks didn’t think to try.
until microsoft changes their licences on new copies of vista to not allow any kind of downgrade rights unless it’s to another copy of vista.
What about the people that have restore disks? I have several copys of XP for DELL and HP computer models.Is Bill and his gang going to shoot in his MS.GV. tool after June and stop Validating the install? And I have run Vista its allright but it takes a lot of resource’s in the computer to run and with Bill and his gang planing to try to cram Windows 7 earler why would anybody want to pay 175.00$ for a vista COA.key? Im not a computer expert NOT EVEN CLOSE I work on them for my friends.I guess when the internet upgrades so will everybody else?!Just like runing Windows 98 it’s not realy that good for the internet anymore.I never thought it was that good period.Maybe I should keep trying to learn how to run Linux Suse and quit filling up Bills bank account! That OS. reminds me of Vista anyway.I like XP but time moves ahead.
Sorry to invoke that song, but it seems to me to be alot of spin; either way, for Microsoft and its huge marketing budget, they can make this coup into something being positive, and this is how:
“Windows Vista is such a radical departure the past that customers have demanded that they’re given more time to make that transition.”
“Windows Vista is the future, and a big step up from Windows XP. We are working with our software partners to ensure that you receive that wow once you have decided to make that leap forward”
“Windows Vista includes so many productivity improving features it is quite daunting for IT departments to take on board all the changes. We, along with our partners, are creating upgrade strategies for our customers to smooth the transition”
I’m sure I could think of many more; which ever way you put it, customers are going to eventually move to Windows Vista; if it means giving some customers training wheels to make that transition, be it a little slow.
At the end of the day, for Microsoft, as much as they would love everyone to move to Windows Vista (which will eventually happen), the over riding concern is ensuring they remain with Windows for the long term – or more exactly, ensure that they don’t get any smart ideas like moving off proprietary Microsoft technologies which will make, in the future, migration to a new platform alot easier.
Then again, I’ve said this in the past; the dual team of Windows and Office will eventually kill them. Hence, I’ve said this about Apple and about Microsoft – they need to focus on the middlewre and use that as the re-occuring revenue stream – not the operating system. The operating system should largely static with incrimental updates with maybe bit improvements every 4 years. But the point I am making, is that the focus should not be on the OS to generate revenue.
Red Hat is realising this, Sun is releasing this, IBM realised this long ago. Too bad for Microsoft, they haven’t realised this. They are still treating the operating system as nothing more than a giant application when they need to realise that an operating system forms the foundation of the whole system – and it isn’t something you should or can change at whim – because if you do try to do that, you end up with the monument to chaos and bad design as we have seen with Windows Vista.