Submitted by Newly published results show Apple’s newly adopted Thunderbolt technology blows FireWire 800 out of the water with data transfer speeds to an external RAID system at 700MB/s.
Newly published results show Apple’s newly adopted Thunderbolt technology blows FireWire 800 out of the water with data transfer speeds to an external RAID system at 700MB/s.
The comparison they test is Thunderbolt vs USB 2.0 vs FireWire 800. If we’re talking an external RAID array then I would argue that neither USB 2.0 nor FireWire 800 are appropriate interfaces. I’d be much more interested in seeing comparisons between Thunderbolt vs USB 3.0 vs eSATA, both of which would be more reasonable interfaces to an external RAID box.
Well, thunderbolt is only available in apple hardware now, and they don’t have eSata nor USB3. So they can not do a comparison against them using the same hardware.
http://www.lacie.com/more/index.htm?id=10112
http://www.sonnettech.com/product/tempo-x_esata8.html
http://store.apple.com/us/product/H1113LL/A
Doesn’t Thunderbolt technology scale to fibre? The current implementation on Macs is the copper implementation I thought? eSATA / USB 3.0?
From what I read all of these at the time were / are still technically significantly superior to those that were ultimately adopted by the industry? I wouldn’t be surprising though. My observation and opinion is that the industry generally approaches things from a perspective of “make whatever’s cheapest so we can sell it as cheap as possible to beat the competition”. Just a personal opinion though.
Another view is that the industry didn’t go the way of some of these technologies because they were convinced not to by another rather large player who at the time had significantly more cash available to throw around. Maybe a bit conspiracy theory’ish, but in this industry certainly not out of the question.
Also, didn’t the first Macs to come out with Firewire onboard already have USB? I thought USB 2.0 was nowhere to be seen in the wild at the time, and due to it’s reliance on the processor to do all the work, unlike the industry standard IEEE1394, USB was considered to put too much load on the processors of the day in cases of critical or time dependent data transfers? And isn’t Firewire chainable, and ADB, and Thunderbolt, with the ability to chain devices of different speeds without affecting other devices on the bus?
Maybe I read wrong.
Those would require a Mac with expansion slots and current MBPs and imacs does not come with those anymore.So you can not use those for doing a comparison.
Ya cuz these are the only computers Apple sells
Edited 2011-07-01 03:28 UTC
Only if you want to compare it using the same hardware / OS for all tests which I would consider to be the most correct way to do benchmarks.
The eSATA tests are coming up. This is according to macworld.com.
Edited 2011-06-30 18:08 UTC
I can tell you where it ISN’T: any computer sold by Apple.
It’s the same old hilarious pattern that Apple has been repeating for over two decades now.
1) Instead of adopting the industry standard technology, they reinvent their own version of the wheel (PPC, NuBus, ADC, Firewire, and now Thunderbolt).
2) Apple announces the competing solution which that they’re developing/adopting, and their tout it as being 50x faster than the competition.
3) Apple’s “mee tooo” solution fails miserably when the initial hype turns out to be bullshit, no one else adopts the tech outside of Apple & it’s only kept afloat by Apple out of embarrassment “Not Invented Here”
4) With tail tucked firmly between their legs, Apple has to adopt the industry standard (x86/x64, PCI/AGP, VGA/DVI, USB2, and whatever technology inevitably beats Thunderbolt), in the process screwing over everyone gullible enough to buy into their competing, incompatible solution.
Didn’t NuBus predate PCI and FireWire predate USB? Not sure how you can spin that as “Apple doing their own thing instead of using the ‘industry standard'”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thunderbolt_(interface)
1. Please do note that Intel is the designer of the Thunderbolt technology. So much for Apple reinventing the wheel.
2. Thunderbolt is far faster than USB 3.0 and other competing technologies.
3. Again it isn’t Apple’s solution but rather comes from Intel. Apple is merely an early adopter. Firewire was adopted by dozens of corporations whose CEOs are responsible for managing in one year more money than you will ever see in your life.
4. Apple moved to embrace industry standards with the CHRP platform in the mid 90s and has been evolving toward more standard hardware ever since. On the matter of compatibility I can legally run Windows, Linux, Mac OS X, and pretty much any other operating system on my MacBook. I can run Windows apps side by side with KDE and MS Office for Mac. Can you say the same for your Dell laptop?
Fail troll is fail.
1. Please do note that Intel is the designer of the Thunderbolt technology. So much for Apple reinventing the wheel.
Maybe… Won’t argue on that (Don’t know enough about the subject).
2. Thunderbolt is far faster than USB 3.0 and other competing technologies.
Well… If you talk about eSata for example it’s allready an old technology… So if you compare it to it’s first release you’re right but it’s also evolving and announced speed is not so different from thunderbolt (For equivalent public availability).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_ATA#eSATA
3. Again it isn’t Apple’s solution but rather comes from Intel. Apple is merely an early adopter. Firewire was adopted by dozens of corporations whose CEOs are responsible for managing in one year more money than you will ever see in your life.
Well No… Apple was clearly involved from the beginning with firewire and is commonly seen as the designer of this technology (In comparison, USB was designed by multiple other companies)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_1394_interface
4. Apple moved to embrace industry standards with the CHRP platform in the mid 90s and has been evolving toward more standard hardware ever since. On the matter of compatibility I can legally run Windows, Linux, Mac OS X, and pretty much any other operating system on my MacBook. I can run Windows apps side by side with KDE and MS Office for Mac. Can you say the same for your Dell laptop?
This last point is pure trolling I think… Anyway. Apple adopted “most” industry standards for financial reasons. It was much too expensive to support another platform and “reinventing the wheel”
You can run Windows (or others) on “Apple” hardware because THEY (the others) are open and accept this kind of usage… Now that apple uses Standard hardware there’s no reason why it shouldn’t work.
And you’re right… I can’t say the same from a Dell laptop because of Apple’s lock-in. Even if you technically resolve the lock-in Apple will sue you to hell.
Fail troll is fail. [/q]
You’re right
P.S: Sorry for my english… It’s not my native language
I do know about the subject. I’ve told you directly, and you are free to research the matter yourself.
We aren’t talking about eSATA, we are talking about Thunderbolt. The original claim stated that Apple “tout[s] it as being 50x faster than the competition”. The fact is, Thunderbolt is extremely fast. It is faster than some, not as fast as others. Of course if it is significantly faster than some specific technology that is otherwise commonly used for the same problem domain, marketing will make a point of that and moreover would be fools if they didn’t.
I never said Apple wasn’t involved in Firewire. I said Intel is the recognized designer of Thunderbolt, formerly known as Light Peak. Do your homework.
Which is why Intel is listed as the designer on the wikipedia page, right?
The last point wasn’t a troll but rather a counterpoint to the claim that Apple always reinvents the wheel, as was claimed by the OP. You’ve already acknowledged that Apple has avoided reinventing the wheel. The reasons, be they financial or otherwise, are beside the point and absolutely irrelevant. The point being that the OP was absolutely wrong.
The reasons are irrelevant. The fact is, I can run more software to include Linux, Windows, and Macintosh in a more integrated fashion than any other platform on the planet. Between Fink, Parallels, Wine ^aEUR| I can run more software than pretty much anybody else. This enables me to select the right tool for the job regardless of the job as I have all the tools at my disposal. Whether it is for licensing or any other reasons, no other platform on Earth can claim to do what the Macintosh can do. It’s not a troll, just a point that makes Apple haters, such as the OP, go appestat.
I do know about the subject. I’ve told you directly, and you are free to research the matter yourself.
I’ll certainly do it when I have some time. To be honest it’s not an immediate priority. But it’ll certainly happen soon.
We aren’t talking about eSATA, we are talking about Thunderbolt.
Hum… I answered to that:
Thunderbolt is far faster than USB 3.0 and other competing technologies.
So for me… Yes… You were talking about Thunderbolt in comparison to other technologies and my answer was relevant.
The original claim stated that Apple “tout[s] it as being 50x faster than the competition”.
True for SOME other technologies… Certainly not all the competition. It’s only one word, but it changes completely the meaning of the statement
The fact is, Thunderbolt is extremely fast.
True
It is faster than some, not as fast as others.
True
Of course if it is significantly faster than some specific technology that is otherwise commonly used for the same problem domain, marketing will make a point of that and moreover would be fools if they didn’t.
That’s the point… Marketing says “we’re better than others”. Reality says “This technology is good (Technically speaking) but…”.
TB is certainly better than some technologies commonly used actually, but TB isn’t a technology commonly used either… It’s like comparing apples with oranges.
It’s relevant to compare an upcoming technology to another upcoming technology, not to a legacy one.
I never said Apple wasn’t involved in Firewire. I said Intel is the recognized designer of Thunderbolt, formerly known as Light Peak. Do your homework.
Please keep polite. It’s not because you’re safely hidden behind your iWhatever that you have to be rude.
This appart… You said exactly this:
Again it isn’t Apple’s solution but rather comes from Intel. Apple is merely an early adopter. Firewire was adopted by dozens of corporations whose CEOs are responsible for managing in one year more money than you will ever see in your life.
The way you said it implied Apple was only one of the adopter of this technology… Nothing more (Interpretation I agree). And that’s still wrong. Sorry if you don’t like this fact.
Which is why Intel is listed as the designer on the wikipedia page, right?
That’s simply wrong… It’s Apple which is listed as the designer. Please read again (Right column with factual description):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_1394_interface
The last point wasn’t a troll but rather a counterpoint to the claim that Apple always reinvents the wheel, as was claimed by the OP. You’ve already acknowledged that Apple has avoided reinventing the wheel. The reasons, be they financial or otherwise, are beside the point and absolutely irrelevant.
Really? Ok… It’s a point of view.
P.S: I’ve acknowledged that apple avoided reinventing the wheel by adopting some standards… It was never a general statement about Apple’s politic.
The fact is, I can run more software to include Linux, Windows, and Macintosh in a more integrated fashion than any other platform on the planet. …. This enables me to select the right tool for the job regardless of the job as I have all the tools at my disposal.
In my company we have about 500 workstations… Some of them are from Apple. The amount of problems with missing software, integration difficulties, compatibility of documents is really amazing.
Distrust me if you want, but I have much less problems finding the tools we need in our M$ environment.
If it’s the right tool for you… I’m happy for you and will certainly not advise you to change. But you arn’t the keeper of universal truth. For some(most?) professionals, Apple products simply don’t fit their needs.
Whether it is for licensing or any other reasons, no other platform on Earth can claim to do what the Macintosh can do.
Morally and technically discutable. But I won’t argue on that. I don’t think you would discuss that statement rationally.
P.S: I’m not interested in flamewars and overall… I’m working. I hope you’ll understand that I can’t continue this discussion.
Usb3,eSata and Firewire can do some of the things (most of?) Thunderbolt can do. However there are things such as external gfx cards that only Thunderbolt can do effectively. Sony is using this same tech in the new Z series laptops (but are shoving it in a usb connector, so they cannot call it Thunderbolt)
I fail to see how calling you out for your failure to read is being rude.
Ok, you seem not understand the subject of his commentary. He is talking about Light Peak/Thunderbolt not Firewire (the “it” clearly refers to TB). The second part was contesting that Firewire was only implemented by apple, that is wrong, it eventually made it PCs (lost rellevance beacause USB was already entrenched and “good enough” for most people).
Again, Here he is talking about TB not firewire.
I believe he is implying that because he can run OSX, Linux AND Windows this gives him access to all software available, not that OSX has the most software (It clearly doesn’t). Then again OSX does give you access to unix tools that aren’t available in Windows (except via Cygwin?).
Edited 2011-07-01 12:07 UTC
Usb3,eSata and Firewire can do some of the things (most of?) Thunderbolt can do. However there are things such as external gfx cards that only Thunderbolt can do effectively. Sony is using this same tech in the new Z series laptops (but are shoving it in a usb connector, so they cannot call it Thunderbolt)
OK… Interesting. As I said before I’ll certainly check all this when I’ll have a bit of time left.
I fail to see how calling you out for your failure to read is being rude.
Telling me I missunderstood is certainly not a problem… Especially as my english is far away from being good.
On the other side, putting stupid and condescending comments like “Do your homework” is certainly not something he would have said if I was sitting in front of him.
Ok, you seem not understand the subject of his commentary. He is talking about Light Peak/Thunderbolt not Firewire (the “it” clearly refers to TB).
OK with that (I never contested that part anyway)
The second part was contesting that Firewire was only implemented by apple, that is wrong, it eventually made it PCs (lost rellevance beacause USB was already entrenched and “good enough” for most people).
IF it’s that he wanted to tell… Well. Then I probably missunderstood… I certainly agree that other brands also implemented it.
Again, Here he is talking about TB not firewire.
As much as I agree that I could have misunderstood the preceeding point I don’t agree on this one…
He clearly answered to my statement that was also clearly about Firewire (I posted even twice the link to the corresponding page). And at this point pretending FW is not Apple’s baby is simply not true (And he knows it).
I believe he is implying that because he can run OSX, Linux AND Windows this gives him access to all software available, not that OSX has the most software (It clearly doesn’t). Then again OSX does give you access to unix tools that aren’t available in Windows (except via Cygwin?).
Through virtualisation you have a lot of possibilities under any possible OS… That’s why I totally agree with what (or how) YOU say it… The way he said it was quiet biased (Personal feeling).
Once again… As I said in my first post… English is not my native language. So if I missunderstand something, clarification is welcome.
Probably most of humanity can do that fairly legally as well. It might be a radical idea to you, but to many people & in many places EULAs don’t equate to, don’t overwrite existing laws.
(nvm flaunting in context artificial limitations put up by Apple, are you for real?)
Edited 2011-07-05 16:38 UTC
Thunderbolt was created by Intel and is owned by Intel.
And USB (3) was created by a consortium which includes Intel.
Thunderbolt was designed by Intel, google Light Peak
I don’t know what your computer industry background is or how deep your computer history go, but I do know that there are some errors here with these 2 comments.
1). I’m not sure about the others, but Apple didn’t invent Nubus or PPC. Look towards MIT for NuBus. Look towards IBM for PPC (yeh, those guys who invented the standard PC). Apple simply created products that use those technologies.
2) These old technologies were created when there really weren’t any clear winning standards. Everything was new, nothing was firmly established yet. No one truly could’ve predicted which technologies would become standard. Also, many of the technologies that became standard didn’t do so because they were better, there’re always other factors involved.
3). Your post implies that you are comparing like items that were all available at the same time, however, this is not the case. Neither x86/x64, PCI/AGP, VGA/DVI, or USB2 were available when Apple first started using PPC, NuBus, ADC, or Firewire (respectively). Apple eventually implemented the former technologies after they had been created & vetted by the industry.
Check first, before posting.
Also, unlike the rest of the industry, Apple’s known for picking the better standard rather than the one that’s the cheapest to implement. So, all of those implementations that Apple used instead of going with the industry standard actually happen to be better than the industry favorites that were available at the time.
The standards which Apple chose demonstrably weren’t better as standards …since they hardly became ones. There’s more to it than “offer nice numbers in edge cases, no matter the cost”; such approaches, that you seem to cherish, brought Apple to the brink of collapse.
The messiah seems to agree: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LEXae1j6EY&feature=player_detailpag…
…and particularly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LEXae1j6EY&feature=player_detailpag…
(emphasis mine)
Edited 2011-07-05 21:15 UTC
When the audience is Apple fanboys, a little oversimplification is essential. After all, these are people who stubbornly insist that early implementers of a technology should get just as much credit as the inventor (and that’s when they’re not just outright giving Apple credit for inventing everything).
Uh, yeah, I’m pretty sure that x86 existed and was widely available when Apple went with PPC.
??? When exactly do you think that VGA first became available?
And yet, none of the other major computer makers
Translation: they implement standard technologies long after every other major computer maker had implemented them, and only because it was becoming an embarrassment.
Try following your own advice. And sine I’m such a nice guy, I’ll throw in another free piece of advice: try not being so easily-trolled next time.
Cause we need more trolls on OS News.
Ah, so you have no clue that the first Intel chips Apple used aren’t even x86-64; Core Duos are good old x86 / it made absolutely no difference at the time / BTW, those Core Duos are quite direct descendants of P3 (in their times regularly slandered by Apple, with a PR campaign of “supercomputer on a chip” for PPC based around few hand-picked Photoshop benchmarks)
Also, since you didn’t notice, early Macs had integrated monitor…
Thunderbolt is a bunch of crap. Its a motherboard only chip, which means you won’t use it with older hardware like you can esata. Right now its only on Mac’s. While it currently outperforms sata 6gps, sata 6 is just now gaining traction and it had the benefit of past successes. Lets face it, if you want that kind of speed, you go fiber channel. Is thunderbolt even switchable? Or is it a one to one connection? You probably won’t be buying any kind of raid solution that really needs to use it. Assuming their data is correct, 700MB/s is about the full capacity of 10Gbps ethernet. There aren’t very many data solutions that can fill a 10Gbps data port.
NOBODY other than a handful of fringe geeks spanking it in the corner are likely to give a flying purple fish.
Just like Firewire 800.
You’re likely correct. Right now apple is single source for cables. They cost $50/ea and have builtin tranceivers (not just a simple cable). It seems to be more server grade than consumer grade.
I actually don’t agree with you at all… But if there was a moderate option like “+1 Bitchin’ Prose” or something I would mod you up