I’m not 100% sure this is actually word-for-word, but alas. “In a presentation at Ubuntu Developer Summit currently going on in Denmark, Drew Bliss from Valve said that Linux is more viable than Windows 8 for gaming. Windows 8 ships with its own app store and it is moving away from an open platform model.” I feel like a broken record by now but here we go again: keep an eye on Valve, even if you’re not into games. This is the company pushing NVIDIA and AMD to improve their Linux support, with enough clout and name to actually get stuff done. Valve doesn’t mess around.
I am absolutely keeping my eye in Valve. In addition to the video bit, this will hopefully also force a massive audio improvement on Linux. Gaming needs low-latency playback for it to work and VOIP, which traditionally accompanies gaming, needs a decent recording latency. Linux’s current audio situation, what with Pulseaudio and the rest of that multi-layered mess, is a far cry from this. Valve will, hopefully, be a driving force to improve it.
Pulseaudio is actually a pretty great infrastructure and for those who need super low-latency there is JACK.
It got a bad name because Ubuntu, as they often do, crammed it in too early and pretty heavily misconfigured for a lot of people’s hardware at first; Switching from pure Alsa to pulseaudio also didn’t seem to go smoothly for people.
I’m somewhat worried they’ll do the same with Wayland; it sounds like they’re looking to cram it in sooner than common drivers are ready for it… It’s a better infrastructure design too, but yeah
[q]Pulseaudio is actually a pretty great infrastructure and for those who need super low-latency there is JACK.
Unfortunately, no amount of great infrastructure can compensate for the fact that the underlying drivers, ALSA, are crap. MOst cards aren’t supported fully, drivers have their own latency factors, Dmix (which can come into the picture even when you don’t want it to) has bad delays, there is little to no surround sound support in most drivers (so it doesn’t matter if Pulseaudio has surround APIs). In addition, jack and pulse conflict unless you set them up just right, and that is not something the average user will know how or wish to do. Neither audio add-on can compensate for the fact that the underlying driver system can’t exercise the full potential of your audio hardware. You can build a brick house, but if you build it on a wood foundation, don’t be surprised when it collapses.
That’s the classic catch 22 that maybe the Valve push will help with…
The number of people gaming on Linux is less because the hardware support for audio and video isn’t as good because there are few companies that support it because there isn’t as much of a market because there aren’t very many solid games because the the number of people gaming on Linux is less… repeat.
I wish I could convince myself the Valve push will work
I think it will, not today but tomorrow. When talking about games at Linux it seems quit a few people start to think of those 1% market share Linux has on the desktop but it goes far beyond that. There are game-consoles, there are home entertainment systems, there are mobile platforms and so on. Valve going Desktop Linux, and even Ubuntu, is just the door opener. Its the first step to make Linux and Linux based solutions more attractive for gaming, for 3D, for end-users and for the mass market.
Valve doing this now will give them a competative advantage. That’s in for them: offering there solutions on far more devices to far more customers. Its also a clear step out of the dependency to Microsoft. A dependency that is hitting back now that Microsoft introduced its app store as only way to get software on there new (RT) devices. Its needed else Valve msy find themselfs outruled by Microsoft.
A proper solution will be the use of crossplaform library to render those games available to virtually any system.
Audio issue, PulseAudio is the most common for the majority of Linux based system. Video issue is related to the vendors themselves (AMD, Nvidia and Intel), some commercial games runs on MESA based driver without hiccups because of minimum requirement.
Isn’t it ironic the market number is used as an excuse, yet gaming publisher have no problem releasing their game on Apple iMac and MacBook which are far less popular than Microsoft Windows system wordwide?
Looking at hundle bundle website (http://www.humblebundle.com/), on average, Linux system users are willing to pay more than both Mac and Windows showing a potential growing marketing. When a gaming company saw that opportunity, expect other to follow the suit.
There is a very simple solution to this: A sound card with hardware mixing. Simply insert a low-end Soundblaster Audigy and get rid of PulseAudio, Dmix, and other ugly solutions.
It’s not expensive and you’ll be stunned by the result. It removes an awesome amount of audio issues and makes Linux audio just work.
Now, maybe. How many years later?
No, it got a bad name because it “fixed” the wrong layer in the audio stack. ALSA is crap. ALSA drivers are crap. ALSA has so many issues with it, that nobody wants to work on it. Instead, everyone layers more bandaids on top, trying to make up for all the crap in ALSA.
The correct solution is to fix ALSA. Then there would be no need for Pulse.
Wayland uses Gallium3D/KMS for drivers. X.org uses (among others) Gallium3D/KMS. IOW, if the driver works with X.org, it’ll work with Wayland. Granted, the only Gallium3D/KMS drivers are the OSS ones …
Yes, I remember when playing games on my Spectrum 16K, Amstrad CPC 464, and Atari ST. Back then we always had VOIP too
Yep VOIP traditionally accompanies games
The problem is gonna be the “FOSSies” and by FOSSies I mean those that hold up the GPL like the 10 commandments because there is a LOT of those guys working on the lower level internals and let us not forget that no matter how you pretty it up Steam is a NON GPL DRM PLATFORM and the FOSSie faction would rather burn the place to the ground than let that take hold.
You see Linux is split in 2 right now, the pragmatists that want a viable alternative to the big 2 and the FOSSies who frankly don’t care if Linux never gets beyond a handful of users as long as the GPL is held inviolate.
So mark my words, what you will see with Steam is this: “Oops, updates broke Steam sound, well that wouldn’t happen Gabe if you’d open up the source but since you won’t well too bad, so sad” “Oops, networking is broken for Steam users? Well that wouldn’t happen if you’d just open up the source but since you won’t nothing we can do, sorry”.
There is a reason why you don’t see proprietary programs on Linux, its not because you can’t get them to run in the first place, its the simple fact that you’ll never keep them running because you will have devs actively sabotaging your efforts. I pointed this out on Linux forums and was told “So, GPL is pure and we don’t want it contaminated so you can keep your DRM on Windowz” and that is pretty much why Valve hasn’t got a chance.
Yep, that’s why Android Linux is such a huge failure, and why the Linux kernel will never accept the Android patches into the mainstream. Oh, wait…
against Microsoft and Windows 8. They are simply worried people can switch to the app store and Microsoft will eat their lunch.
Valve’s best bet is to support older versions of Windows (MS has to push Windows 8 no matter what and app store is one of its killer features). This means Valve will be OK as long as there is a market for older versions of Windows.
I don’t think they are seriously expecting a large part of Windows gamers to move to Linux (although, no doubt, they wouldn’t mind such scenario). It is just their way of slowing down the migration to Windows 8 and the MS app store.
This is still a good news for Linux users. Along the way there might be some goodies for them to pick up: more games, lower prices, better drivers.
What I think Valve should concentrate on is catering to their original users base and partners and concentrating on improving their product.
Steam has quite a lot of existing users and a good community. Gabe is just panicking over nothing (steam works perfectly fine in Windows 8).
A good businessman doesn’t worry about the now, but about tomorrow. Only people with their heads in the sand aren’t seeing where Windows is going. Gabe is preparing for that.
Agreed. However, if all he can come up for a Plan B is Ubuntu, he might as well bury his head in the sand and save himself the trouble.
I don’t think he has a lot of options here.
All this Ubuntu stuff is a ruse anyway. They’re building a Steambox specification that runs on Linux – quite possibly their own, heavily modified Linux – that developers can target much in the same way they target consoles now. Enthusiasts can still build their own rigs, and OEMs can offer their own Steamboxes.
Actually I remember a reply from the Valve team at there Linux blog that the reason for 32-bit Ubuntu 12.04 (not even 64-bit atm) is focus. First they try to get things working satisfying and once done extend the support (64-bit, other distributions, etc).
From a development point of view it makes absolute sense that you do not start to spread your limited resources but try to get them focused. Reach one milestone at a time.
Sorry Thom,
1) But saying Win 8 isn’t a viable gaming platform is talking garbage.
2) Linux is well known for breaking stuff and piss poor 3d (wait until they move to Wayland, Nvidia won’t work with that).
Steam has a good community, and most of them use Windows and probably have no desire to change their OS or how they buy games.
Installing your own programs on Windows x86/x64 systems is not going away at all … there is just too many little niche uses for Windows for that to happen.
…I’m not gonna copy you and say that’s garbage in return..
BUT I don’t believe it’s hard and fast true either!
: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTE5MTk
(and there’s other noises about saying similar things)
May being the operative word.
It isn’t when you take long-term into account, something many people refuse to do here. Long-term, Windows is going Metro-only. That effectively kills any serious gaming on Windows – and Microsoft is okay with that, because they’ve got an Xbox to sell you.
Which is exactly why Valve is working with AMD, NVIDIA, and others. The breakage is not something that’s unstoppable or insurmountable – just look at Android. Valve could easily work together with the parties involved to come to a – for Valve – stable platform for developers to target. If Google can, then Valve can. Especially with the help of major other game companies with which they’re already working anyway through Steam. Remember, a Metro-only no-serious-gaming Windows is disastrous for especially NVIDIA. Nobody needs a powerful graphics chip for Metro and Cut The Rope.
You are stuck in the present, unable to look beyond the horizon. Windows’ viability as a gaming platform will end in the very near future when Microsoft pulls the plug on the desktop. They’ve made it very clear they intend to do so, and luckily for us, Valve has the brains to start addressing that situation NOW, instead of when it’s too late.
Edited 2012-10-30 15:41 UTC
You don’t know what you’re talking about. Native Metro apps written in C/C++ are basically the same as native Win32 apps: They use D3D11, swap chain/flip mode, game loop, input events, raw mouse support, etc. I know because, unlike you, I’ve actually written Metro games; not regurgitated lame BS that I read on some blog.
Why so hostile? Did I insult you?
In any case, let’s see how many serious games will be available through Metro one year from now. Hint: it’ll be very little.
It will be very little because all the same APIs that have been around since forever are still there, and the irony will be that many will be bought via Steam.
Yeah, I dont quite see wtf thom is talking about.
The Metro UI and APIs does not affect games much, if any, as it stands. MS is keeping and improving the APIs games use and all the games need is a Metro frontend. Which would take an hour for a coder to whip up. Most games run fullscreen anyways.. sooo..?
So much fearmongering and unsubstantiated BS flying around the internet as to make one sick.
It standard fair when talking about Microsoft.
You can’t make a modern browser work in Metro. What makes you think a game would fare any better?
really? You are really typing something this retarded?
Just because Google half assed it’s metro support doesn’t mean you “cant” do something. Mozilla is working hard to finish customizing FF for it and the results, thus far, are pretty good.
If you find my comment that you don’t know what you’re talking about to be hostile, perhaps you should redefine your notion of the term hostility to be less egocentric.
Only developers who hate money will stay away from Windows 8. If Steam isn’t on board, it’s going to get steamrolled, and Newell knows it. Which is why he’s whining. He doesn’t want to share any cash with the ecosystem. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!!!!
Edited 2012-10-30 19:54 UTC
Well, why would games need to be Metro? It doesn’t provide anything useful to the developers, plus going Metro would mean the game wouldn’t work on earlier Windows versions.
There are already games being built in metro. Armed is a good example … can run on tablet and x86.
http://apps.microsoft.com/webpdp/en-us/app/armed/a080e316-b7ff-4d81…
Nintendo Wii and the Kinect have pretty much proven that a lot of games the wider market want to play (not hardcore gamers like myself) things like Angry Birds or shorter simpler fun games.
I like stuff like Crysis myself, but when work get busy … I tend to play a bit of street fighter or poker to cool off.
I work in the gaming industry and the amount of money people spent in flash slot games, When a slot game is released they easily generate half a million in revenue in the first few days.
Also believe it or not. Bingo is massive, I am making a Bingo site as my next project.
A HTML 5 bingo application that could run cross platform could be massive.
Edited 2012-11-02 20:17 UTC
Thom didn’t mention technical reasons. I assumed he was talking about the family friendly policy on the Windows Store, which suggests Microsoft want to see a certain kind of app on Metro/ModernUI, leaving the gung-ho gaming favourites to the console market.
The family friendly policy has been scrapped.
You’re buying too much into Gabe’s bullshit as if he is some sort of holy and honest defender of gaming territory. He’s a defender of his own territory. The bottom line is this: Microsoft is not going to abandon the Win32 gaming market. To do, you have to make the following assumptions:
1) That Microsoft is willing throw away all of their backwards compatibility that they worked so hard to preserve the past few decades.
2) That Microsoft even WANTS to get rid of the desktop. Office 2013 runs on the desktop and do you honestly believe Office 2013 will be incompatible with Windows 9?
3) That Microsoft even CAN get rid of the desktop. As mentioned earlier, WinRT is built directly on top of Win32. The recently released .NET Framework 4.5 sits atop Win32 *AND* the desktop APIs.
In the past, Microsoft has taken many initiatives that developers did not agree with. With the .NET Framework, they wanted a world of managed code. Did they get it? Nope, just about every single game is still running on Win32. They wanted games on Windows 3.0 back in 1990. Did they get it? Nope, game devs continued making games for DOS until DirectX 6 and 7 came out, a whopping 8 years later.
Microsoft won’t abandon the Windows desktop until everybody else does. Why? Because they can’t. And why would they? Windows 8 has brought many improvements to the desktop, who’s to stay Windows 9 won’t bring even more? Sure, they focused heavily on touch this time around but that is because that is what they needed the most. Hell – do you think Gabe will?
Let’s make this very clear: Gabe is not running from Windows 8 because of its deficiencies as a gaming platform, he’s running from it because its strengths as one. If Microsoft improves the Metro UI, improves the Store policies, and improves their Xbox Live initiatives such to the point that it becomes an excellent gaming platform, it will kill Valve’s position as an online publisher.
Imagine further in Windows 9 that the Windows Store comes to the desktop, further solidifying the staying of power of the desktop, yet retaining compatibility with all previous software built for Windows.
THAT is what Gabe fears.
I think you’re right to imagine Microsoft taking a far more pragmatic approach than Valve is suggesting. And Valve are certainly doing this for self preservation reasons. But its still worth looking forward to Linux for the desktop being knocked into better shape and thrust upon the world as a platform with a sense of purpose.
No it isn’t. There is always going to be something like classic mode. There is just too much existing code to kill it off.
Android is a completely different, they aren’t even comparable.
Android development is controlled via Google. What sits underneath Android Layer could be anything … It could be a modified OpenBSD, QNX or something else. When you develop for Android … you develop against the Android SDK … the fact that it is Linux is irrelevant to those who release Apps and Games.
Only if there is a Steam Distro or we are using Ubuntu (which tends to push stuff buggy crap out early, like the pulse audio fiasco, and in another 6 months wayland).
Oh great, so Valve now dictates what hardware will work best with their games, brilliant!
There is C++, Direct X and probably a lot of other stuff. There is no reason why triple A titles can’t run in Metro. Considering the Unreal 3 Engine can run in Flash … There is no reason why say the CryEngine or the Unreal 3 engine can’t run in Metro.
I just don’t think the future is the same as you are predicting. That isn’t the same as the fact that I don’t understand what you are saying, I just disagree. Who is right or who will is wrong we will find out, pretending you are some sort of oracle just makes you sound like an arsehole.
I don’t think anything like the Traditional Desktop is going to go away for maybe another decade, because there is just too much stuff written out there for the current Desktop.
Anyway, all my steam games work on Windows 8 perfectly fine, so that alone disproves Gabe’s “viability argument”.
Edited 2012-10-30 18:00 UTC
Exactly! And just a few days ago Tom’s Hardware benchmarked a few games on both Windows 7 and Windows 8: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/windows-8-gaming-performance,33…
In other words, if someone has something to sell you, you better not take his words as the Gospel.
Also, although I would like to see modern games run on Linux without having to jump through hoops, I’m afraid it’s never going to happen. A “Steam Box”, on the other hand, is far more likely.
RT.
RT.
snip…
That is exactly what people said about Rosetta when Apple shipped it in OSX 6 years ago..
It didn’t even last 5 years.
Windows != MacOSX.
It is a completely different ecosystem and userbase.
Edited 2012-11-01 15:06 UTC
Yes it is. The difference is that 6 years ago Apple laid down the law with their developers and said either get on board or get left behind. Then they followed through with it… The power balance between Apple and their developers changed drastically after that – in other words Apple took the position that THEY know best what their users want, and as a developer it is your JOB to deliver it. If you are a developer, and your idea of what you think your customers want conflicts with Apple…
You lose. Automatically.
That is WHY it is different.
Im not saying that Microsoft is definitely going to go this route. Im definitely not saying I agree with this approach. What I am saying is that the “Metro is the future” mantra MS has been preaching for the last year sounds very familiar to me… The next step will be app signing for desktop apps and putting them in the appstore. Sound familiar?
If that ends up happening (I hope it doesn’t), just don’t be surprised when (as a Developer) the power you hold over Microsoft to deliver things they way YOU want them evaporates. You wont matter anymore, all Microsoft will care about is the end user – developers are just a means to an end…
Microsoft has always been a company that went out of their way to cater to their developers. Metro is (imo) a distinct change in that strategy, long term at least. It is a wolf in sheep’s clothing…
Maybe Im wrong. Well see I guess.
Well allowing someone to define whatever pricing model they want via the metro store I don’t think is particularly restrictive.
Thom, people aren’t refusing to see the long-term plan, we are simply arguing the fact that no matter what Microsoft’s plan for the future is doesn’t make Windows 8 itself any more or less viable, it only makes the future versions less viable. What happens in the future happens in the future, and what we have right now is Windows 8 — something that works just as well and peachy as its predecessor.
You’re confusing long-term plans with the present.
That comparison is dysfunctional. Android comes as a whole OS and you don’t arbitrarily update parts of it, whereas under GNU/Linux the OS consists of thousands of individual packages, each of which can be updated separately. It’s a whole lot easier to keep the one, large bundle functional without breakages than one that consists of so many small things and that keeps changing on a daily basis.
See where its going? You mean another Vista flop? and even if it doesn’t flop, lets just say for the sake of argument it don’t…I direct your attention to Games For Windows Live, which MSFT has had YEARS to fix and to this very day if you look for a game for your PC will give you 3 dozen X360 games without a single product for THE SYSTEM YOU ARE USING!
Lets face it Mr Holwerda, MSFT does NOT do “consumer friendly” worth a damn, they just don’t. Even when given a successful competitor to crib off of, like Apple or valve, they ruin the execution, because they have “AOL syndrome” where you have 300 PHBs for every grunt and constant meddling to “push the product” even where the product doesn’t make sense. i’m sure the reason you get 300 X360 games in GFWL when you go looking ON a PC FOR PC games is some PHB brought out a spreadsheet showing X360 trailing in some metric so they needed to “push the product”. Well that is nice for a spreadsheet in a meeting, doesn’t make for a working games platform though.
To put it bluntly Valve has as much to worry about from the appstore as i have reason to worry i might grow wings out my butt and fly south for the winter, IE not at all. MSFT has become this big, bloated, PHB heavy trainwreck of a company and they couldn’t get a gaming platform right if you stuck a gun to their heads, again look at GFWL. How much you wanna bet you’ll start seeing a billion X360 games in there too? After all X360 sales are down, look at the spreadsheet…sigh.
I do realize that Gabe Newell is worried about Microsoft pushing for their Windows Store and thereby possibly making Steam less relevant/attractive to customers and therefore Valve has to try to bolster their presence. Trying to make Windows 8 sound less attractive and downplaying its importance and usability in the media is a common PR-tactic employed by thousands of other companies, too.
However, how does one define “viable” in this case? It doesn’t seem like Gabe is even trying to do that, except going on a tangent about Windows 8 being less of “an open platform.” As far as I know there is absolutely nothing in Windows 8 that prevents you from running all the same apps and games you already run, nor anything to stop you from developing those, so I do not see how it is less of an open platform. Windows Store is not Windows and therefore complaining about it being closed is misguided in this context. Also, I have not heard of side-loading Metro-applications/games being restricted, either, except on Windows RT — and we’re obviously not talking about that here. So, what exactly is it about Windows 8 that makes it less of a viable gaming platform or a platform to target games for? Why was Windows 7 seemingly good enough, what with Gabe never complaining about it?
From an end-user’s point of view how is Linux more viable a gaming platform when you take into account the facts that a lot of gaming-oriented devices only support Windows, most PC-games are only for Windows, there is no stereoscopic 3D – support under Linux and so on? All I see is a lot of complications and misbehaving or missing features. For a developer Linux is a viable platform, yes, but then again it has always been that. I mean, Linux is a great OS, but let’s keep things based on reality.
Personally I welcome Steam on Linux wholeheartedly and I hope Valve will find it commercially viable — everyone will be better off that way, but Linux simply does not work for me for gaming; I want to keep my stereoscopic 3D and surround sound, plus I want to play the games I have already bought.
Of course he is – but just because he has an agenda doesn’t make what he is saying wrong…
1. Microsoft has publicly and repeatedly proclaimed “the future is metro” to their developers every chance they get.
2. Metro apps can only be distributed legally through the Windows Store (enterprise deployment not withstanding).
3. Windows Store has many arbitrary limitations, the big one being no apps with a content rating above PEGI 16 are allowed. Note that it doesn’t say they must be marked as adult, they are not allowed.
4. The vast majority of games that actually make money on Steam have a rating above PEGI 16.
I like Windows 8, and I like Metro. But I don’t like Microsoft’s policy here at all. They are making it virtually impossible to distribute modern games targeting Metro at this point. Sure, you can still do games targeting win32, but if “the future is metro”…
Just saying the best time to get pissed off about this is before it has time to establish itself. On top of that, Im sure Valve has already tried to convince Microsoft to pursue a different path – the fact that they are ready to jump ship and move to Linux doesn’t give me any confidence that Microsoft is going to back down on this…
In short, there is nothing (imo) wrong with app stores in general. There IS something very wrong when the vendor of the OS that apps run on is running the app store… The rage over what the guys in Cupertino did with iOS is nothing but a mild hum – they didn’t take something away from their users in order to give them the app store… On Windows the situation is strikingly different – users know the freedom they are potentially giving up.
Even the smell of developers possibly losing the ability to self distribute in the future is going to generate a shit storm, and soon. It has all been theory up to now – as soon as Microsoft applies even a single limitation on win32 apps (and they likely will) the uproar will be chaotic.
Yes it is. You can only sideload using one of two methods – you either need an enterprise deployment allowing you to sign the apps with your domain controller, or you need a special “side-loading enabled” product activation key. You also cannot, under either scenario, sideload an app that was acquired through the Windows Store.
Even if you have a side-load activation key, you can only side-load apps that are signed with a key you trust – meaning you can only side-load things you wrote. It is not a viable method for app distribution because the apps must be signed, and if they are not signed by your key you can’t load them…
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/hh852635.aspx
This effectively means that sideloading of metro apps is an enterprise only feature at worst and a geek only feature at best (assuming a way to get such side-load key becomes apparent). Normal consumers simply cannot side-load metro apps at all.
That may not be true if your favorite company releases a new version of your favorite game, and it doesn’t run on Windows anymore… That is not a joke either – that is a very serious possibility. We are not taking about companies like Zynga – I mean real game companies like Blizzard, Valve, Bethesda, Id, etc.
If it comes down to the choice of making the next Skyrim for Linux or being forced to make the next Fruit Ninja for Windows because of Microsoft’s Store policies… Well I for one would wager that alot of the guys at those companies will go their own way.
Im not some hysterical “omg the sky is falling” type, I am very pragmatic. There is a real possibility that Microsoft will make promises to leave win32 alone and not rock the boat for game developers – but they have not made that promise yet. They also may modify their store policies to make it more friendly to game developers.
The point is they wont do either of those things without a whole lot of people doing a whole lot of screaming about it. Pretending everything is fine and “trusting” Microsoft is just going to get us another walled garden platform like iOS. If you are a gamer, and you are ok with that, you are seriously missing the forest through the trees…
Edited 2012-10-30 01:32 UTC
Indeed, and I never claimed that. I’m just saying that he has more on his heart than just end-users’ happiness.
And yet, neither of those stop Steam from working as it does already, which is exactly what I was saying: Steam works, and will continue to work, as-is just fine. The future is the future and yes, Microsoft is pushing for Metro, but right now it is NOT a requirement and therefore there is absolutely no functional difference between Steam on Windows 7 and Steam on Windows 8. In other words Windows 8 is no more or less viable than Windows 7. The next Windows-version will probably be, but it is misguided to say this one is.
Incorrect: http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2012/10/microsoft-to-allow-mature-gam… In other words Microsoft does allow PEGI-18 to enter the store, now. Also, as I said above, this limitation is only relevant if Steam were to become a Metro-app.
I don’t.
I stand corrected.
A new version of a game that I already own? Why would that affect me? A sequel or a prequel would be a separate game, and if that didn’t work on the OS I use I obviously wouldn’t buy it.
You’re misunderstanding everything I said. I am merely saying Windows 8 is not any worse or better for gaming than Windows 7 is and claiming otherwise is silly. The next Windows – version, whatever it will be, possibly will be worse, but then the complaints should be about the future direction.
It’s like a company producing bricks and the company announcing plans to move to glass bricks: the planned direction is a silly one, but the bricks you have now fill your needs just as well as any former bricks. You can complain “I don’t like your direction and therefore the bricks I have now — even though they’re just as good for what I do as any former ones — are bad and I’m going to throw a tantrum over them instead of your planned direction,” or you can just forgo trying to make the current ones look bad and concentrate on complaining about the plans themselves.
Yes, you are right of course. But some promises from Microsoft concerning the status of win32 going forward would settle a lot of nerves.
Didn’t see that – good to know. Still, do you think they would have reversed course on this if no one complained about it? That is really all Im saying, the complaining from people is a good thing – even if it is from Valve.
It may not be worse for gamers (as in end users) but it is certainly worse for gaming (as in the economy around how they are made and distributed). Its worse because Microsoft has created doubt as to the future of the platform for them – whether intentionally or not. With Windows 7 there was no reason to believe the rug might be pulled out from under you as a developer, with Windows 8? I mean do you know Microsoft’s plans for win32 in 5 years? It used to be fairly obvious, now not so much.
Edited 2012-10-30 04:00 UTC
Yes, I know Microsoft plan’s for Win32 for the next five years and its not going anywhere. WinRT itself is built on top of Win32, as is the .NET Framework. Win32 is going no where. If there is one thing that Microsoft is consistent at, it is backwards compatibility on the x86 platform. But even on Windows RT, it is running Win32.
For at least the next ten years, Win32 is here to stay. Microsoft cannot get rid of Win32 even if they wanted to. The only way to get rid of it is for Windows 9 to break full compatibility of EVERYTHING out today, including Windows 8.
With the way WinRT is dependent on Win32, the staying power of Win32 is more obvious now than it has ever been.
Of course its not going anywhere… You guys are missing the point. Microsoft doesn’t need to kill win32 to start down this path…
Step one – “since the Windows Store has been such a success, MS is now gong to offer developers the opportunity to sell their win32 apps through our app store. The process is virtually the same as Metro, submit your app for approval and we will sign them for you!”
Nay, I don’t want to do that. I like to distribute myself…
Step two – “from now on, in an effort to eliminate malware, you will be required to sign your win32 apps just as is already done for in store apps. We won’t make you sell through the Windows Store, and we won’t make you get approval, it will simply allow users to establish the identity of the publisher and scan the apps for malware and viruses. Getting an app signed will be easy and free, but you have to supply identity credentials. Unsigned apps will now start generating a warning in the desktop UI”
? huh… Thats kinda sucks. Oh well, not too terribly troublesome (I don’t mind giving up anominity), and anyway, its free. Geez though, having to submit my app to MS just to get it signed is a pain. But getting rid of malware is a good goal, Im in.
Step three – “We have determined that the benefits of app signing (for security) are so great that in the next version of Windows unsigned apps will no longer run. We have implemented a whitelist of known-good legacy apps so that they will run going forward without signing, but going forward signing will be required. We highly recommend selling your app through the app store, as the process will be much easier…”
???? Now I HAVE to do it? This is starting to be a real PITA. Maybe I should just publish in the app store?
If it is not obvious, at this point it is game over. They have effectively closed off their platform – even though they havent really closed off the platform yet. All without breaking a single app (at least the ones they don’t want to break). The infrastructure to do this is already in the OS – it would be trivial for them to pull this whenever they want to….
Just saying, the issue is not them “killing off” win32, it is closing it off.
Edited 2012-10-31 04:42 UTC
Exactly!
This is really how Apple did it. And as the current market leader, Microsoft really wants to use that business model to stay viable in the next decade of computing.
Apple would never get rid of Classic. After all, there is tons of software code out there that would cost millions to upgrade or replace.
Apple will maintain Rosetta for as long as necessary to make the transition that none of us saw coming, right?
Apple would never stop the successful individual developer from creating the software real people want to use.
Apple is purchasing these companies so that they can make that software better for its users from audio/video software to PIM.
Apple is only doing the App Store for the convenience of both users and developers.
Apple is doing away with software DVD’s to protect the environment. After all, everyone who uses a Mac has fast internet anyway, so downloading the next OS upgrade is surely no problem, right?
Apple is making important changes so that security is maintained for all users.
Apple is requiring a percentage of sales from every App sold so that the user experience is preserved and everything is uniform & easy for the consumer.
Microsoft will not do this exactly the way Apple did, however, any one who thinks they won’t be getting ride of ‘classic’ on the Windows platform in the next 5 to 10 years, is just not paying attention to history or the computing industry as it has evolved today.
I thought you weren’t the “omg the sky is falling” type? Those fictional series of steps you just listed are the epitome of the paranoid quote you just said you were not.
When I was referencing Win32 backwards compatibility based on the APIs, that same dependency applies to the current distribution model of a Win32 application (On x86, the only ISA that matters for PC Gaming). In other words, Microsoft CAN’T close off Win32. Because again, the basis of what makes Windows so powerful are applications that exist today *AS THEY ARE NOW*. Closing off Win32 applications and requiring that they be installed via a Store is exactly the same as breaking Win32 API compatibility.
Why? Because by virtue of Windows rejecting an installer, it is breaking compatibility; there are thousands of applications whose installers will never be re-written. Like I mentioned earlier to Thom, this disaster scenario you are making up is making the following assumptions:
1. That Microsoft is willing to throw away all of their backwards compatibility that they worked so hard to preserve the past few decades.
2. That Microsoft even WANTS to get rid of the desktop.
3. That Microsoft even CAN get rid of the desktop.
Microsoft recognizes the strength they have with the desktop. It’s why they are using it is as a selling point for Windows 8. Microsoft will not abandon the desktop until the desktop and laptop form factor themselves are dead. And the only way that will happen is if every x86 device on the planet dies and x86 is never again produced. But hey, that’s another ridiculous assumption altogether.
Edited 2012-10-31 08:23 UTC
I think you’re being very optimistic here – MS are perfectly capable of going down a path like that. Sure, it will mean throwing away some of the reasons people use windows. The benefit is that they get to decide what runs on windows, and that they earn 20% on every single windows application sold. That might well be worth the customer loss it would cause. It might not even be a large loss: Eased in over time, the number of consumers lost to other OSes wouldn’t need to be especially large.
Im not being paranoid. I don’t believe Microsoft will end up doing that. But it is a completely realistic scenario. I believe it is naive to pretend that something like this couldn’t happen, it could – quite easily actually.
You didn’t read what I posted. If they wanted to they could make a whitelist of popular apps and allow them to run unsigned… Sure, they can’t include everything obviously, but they could more than likely include enough to make the vast majority of users not notice. They could even forego the whitelist and just go the “bug the user with a warning” route indefinitely – i.e. never really “break” the apps, just make it a pain to run them if they are not signed…
The result is the same either way – it herds developers to their distribution model, and they make more $$$. Don’t underestimate the power of $$$.
Your absolutely right. The thing is nobody but Microsoft knows the answer to 1 and 2. But 3 is definitely true, pretending its not isn’t terribly useful.
I think you are underestimating the allure of having total control of distribution on the platform… Again, I don’t think Microsoft will go this route – but at the same time I don’t for a second believe they wouldn’t do to if they felt they could get away with it.
I just want to keep them honest. I think demanding a roadmap for win32 development going forward is not too much to ask.
Edited 2012-10-31 17:02 UTC
I can understand your viewpoint then, but I suppose the point on which we disagree is whether or not they can get away with it. I, for one, don’t think they can even if they tried. As I’ve mentioned, they tried with the .NET Framework to move the world to a managed code world. It failed. Microsoft fails at many things.
They failed to move the world to Windows as quickly as they wanted. The industry only moved to Windows when the industry itself said it was ready. If it was up to Microsoft, we would’ve moved to Windows at 1.0. It took until Windows 98SE to get where most the PC industry moved to a pure Windows model and moved away from DOS.
If it was up to Microsoft, Vista would have been a success and all applications would have been programmed in WPF. That did not happen, devs stuck with Win32 and many people stayed with Windows XP — against Microsoft wishes. It took Windows 7 to bring that larger move over, a move in which Microsoft themselves updated their built-in Win32 apps (like Paint and WordPad).
In the many failed initiatives Microsoft had, the industry kept Microsoft honest by just continuing to use technology they felt was best. If that technology wasn’t Mircosoft’s latest and greatest, then so be it. That has always been the pattern. Microsoft responds by trying again, until it finds something that WE accept.
The same is going to be true today, whether it be Metro or some sort abandonment of the desktop. If we don’t like the taste of the next version of Windows, it won’t get eaten and it won’t get sold (look at the downgrades that happened with Vista for XP). Right now, the desktop is alive and ready in Windows 8. If Windows 9 closes the desktop, the industry will just say with Windows 8. If Windows 9 doesn’t do it, but MS does it in Windows 10. Then the industry will stay with Windows 9. See Microsoft’s predicament?
I’m not underestimating the allure of money and total control, but I do think you’re underestimating the market’s ability and real power to vote with their wallet. And THAT is what will affect Microsoft the most, just as it always has. Like I said, Microsoft won’t abandon the desktop and it’s distribution model until WE, as a collective industry, say so.
Edited 2012-10-31 18:18 UTC
There is even a very hard requirement. Windows 8 RT is ONLY running Metro. It is correct that Windows 8 RT ships win32 but ONLY Microsoft can use that API and they do in IE10 and Office for RT but NOBODY else can use win32 on RT.
This are the whole ARM, Tablet, Phone product-lines. They and the appstore and API limitations did not exist on Windows 7 but they exist NOW on Windows 8.
You do realize that Windows RT only runs on ARM? As such it is entirely irrelevant in this context, Valve is not targeting ARM. I know RT does not support user-installable desktop apps, but I already said that in my comment.
No, they don’t. They exist on Windows RT, not Windows 8. Apples to apples and oranges to oranges, mate.
You’re absolutely right technically! Although it’s maybe a little disingenuous to be so strongly dismissive (in this context) of the Windows RT side of the Windows 8 coin though.
Only because a lot of people’s thought process regarding Windows gaming won’t immediately differentiate between Windows 8 x86 and Windows(8) RT – and that combined with Microsoft’s push for Metro and the fact that x86/desktop applications will therefore have no place in the Metro App Store means effectively that WinRT tablets and notebooks is thereby a market (a market in terms of Mindshare I mean really, not technically obviously!) which Valve/Steam might have expected to be a part of but in reality isn’t and won’t be.
It probably feels like being pushed-out of Window’s future a little bit (whether that’s intentional or not!)
I think that’s exactly Valve’s agenda. They are afraid Windows 9 will be metro only and only allow windows store and they are trying to put pressure on Microsoft. The best way to put pressure on Microsoft is to prove them they can build a gaming platform on a competing operating system.
Even if Valve doesn’t Valve to abandon Windows, it also make sense from a business perspective to not depend on a single vendor (Microsoft) for a critical requirement of your product (the OS on which it runs).
I think that’s about spot on. Even if down the line at around windows 9 time, the situation is Steam running on a ‘less Metro-only’ Windows 9 the majority of the time, alongside a really good smooth running Linux variant with some better graphics and audio drivers ; let alone the slightly less likely but not impossible situation of a Valve sponsored/produced ‘Valve-OS’ running atop a bespoke ‘Steam PC’/console – that might be Valve’s dream triumvirate outcome for Steam — which would still be Windows in the top spot numbers wise, and could evolve from there. Who knows.
Not to mention the rotting elephant in the room Werecat which is so far the reviews of Win 8 are terrible, even worse than Vista, and we ALL know how well it went over right? Lets face it, getting a product to go over despite huge amounts of bad buzz is nearly impossible for a company with a GREAT PR dept, and MSFT’s PR certainly ain’t great.
Final verdict? Win 7 is supported until 2020, I have a feeling after a dead XMas season the OEMs will demand the right to sell Win 7 (just as they did with XP) and MSFT will cave, just as they did on Vista. They are pushing an appstore because it gives them a walled garden but they AIN’T Apple, they simply aren’t a premier brand and never will be. This is like marking everything in Walmart up 300% and suddenly thinking that makes you Macy’s…it don’t.
Microsoft did recently change their policy, and games sold in Europe with a PEGI-18 rating can be sold if they receive no higher than MA-17 in the US.
Microsoft also tends to change its mind every few years too. Didn’t they ‘bet the company’ on .NET/Silverlight, or some shit?
Win32 will be around for at LEAST another 20 years. That’s about how long it’ll take ’em to make Metro not suck
I actually agree with you completely, but I don’t have money riding on it.
Some people do.
.NET is part of Windows 8.
Silverlight technologies basically are XAML, which is used for Metro Apps.
These technologies have evolved for the new Modern UI interface.
Might we see a ValveOS in the coming years?
I wouldn’t be surprised, but I am guessing it will depend on Steam’s Linux-version’s success — if it isn’t successful it’s unlikely ValveOS will make an appearance, either.
On that note, I also think it would be very hardware-restrictive. I could see a possible collaboration between Valve and Dell with a ValveOS-based Alienware box. But even that is pushing the limits, as it would be prohibitively expensive compared to whatever consoles are released by Microsoft and Sony next generation.
Still, I’d be tempted to buy one…
Alien X51 + Valve OS = Something I would be very interested in.
Two companies that don’t compromise even when one of them is swallowed by the Dell beast.
Personally if Linux proves to be too inflexible I would be interested if Vavle just full on forks it rather than just a new distro.
I’d bet on more of a console than a general-purpose os. It wouldn’t surprise me at all to see the ValveBox (or whatever they call it) if Windows gets too restrictive and neither Linux or Mac work out the way they’d like.
It’s a simple case of Valve’s monopoly being threatened by Microsoft. Hence Valve starts to cry about Windows8.
Valve does not have a monopoly, they’re the market leader. Those two are entirely different things.
Obviously the solution is to have an ‘App Store’ selection screen on first boot like the Web Browser selection screen seen in the EU
Valve is not interested in Linux. They are just trying to put pressure on Microsoft.
In several monthes, Valve and Microsoft will reach an agreement and that will be the end of Valve’s support for Linux.
Boom! Pwn’d it!
http://www.valvesoftware.com/linuxsurvey.php
{edit: “We’re looking for Linux gamers to install and test our new Steam for Linux client. We are primarily interested in experienced Linux users.”}
Edited 2012-10-30 15:30 UTC
Games on linux are more fun yeah. If you had a television set, and the pictures would stop at times, and sound skip, you`d think it is broken. Yet on a PC this is ok? If you remove more than 200 components on a windows XP install, you will get quite nice performance in most games. Jitter sensitive games will still not perform as good as they can. Particulary games like doom 3 which uses several (3) passes to OpenGL. Well maybe it even uses direct3d on windows, which gives slighly more overhead. (Read valve linux blog). I have gotten this game to work very nicely without dropouts on linux. And improving the whole PCIe bus jitter thing, seems to improve the whole computing experience.
Not only does it improve gaming, and let more of the potential of the computer be used, but it is FAST. A lot of activity is there on the next frame. I actually bought a mac mini for OSX, but that seems outdated now. Feels so slow compared to what I have gotten used to in linux. This has actually inspired me to buy a low-jitter workstation aswell, but there is so much ignorance and lack of knowledge on this in the common consumerspace that it is hard to get the point across.
Peace Be With You.
Edited 2012-10-30 16:14 UTC
False assertion. The content is the same regardless of the OS.
I’ve never heard of anyone saying that such is ok on a PC.
WAT?
Yeah. http://paradoxuncreated.com/Blog/wordpress/?p=1783
Fuckwit faggot above ignored. Ofcourse people who are so senseless will have no idea what jitter, or psychovisual phenomena is. Instead “cottaging”
AND COMPLAINTS ABOUT HIGH RESOLUTION. Lol, she should get a c64 and run Geos in 320×200. Hint: It is a reason why GUIs never took off on the c64.
What are you, 14? Go back to cursing fellow teens on Halo if you can’t learn to speak like a grown-up.
What I love is all those “tweaks” do nothing to improve game performance.
Edited 2012-10-31 17:39 UTC
Fuckwit faggots on osnews are many. OH NO:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13506_3-57342871-17/apple-bringing-ultra-…
Someone is reducing pixelation. Your heads are gonna explode, in choppy jitterness, from 200 uneccesary processes. Fucking trash.
Someone doesn’t understand how a graphics card works.
How is the wife in the kitchen project doing?
You are ONLINE TRASH. So ridicolous that if you said what you do IRL, you`d be so laughed at and mocked, that you would forget anything about gay/lesbian in a minute, and take dick up the ass from anyone. PS: That is a clue to who a gay toilet/cottaging-demon is.
From the venom you seem to have against anyone that is a homosexual, I expect you are feeling guilty about your feelings towards other men.
Go back to Halo kid, come back when you can learn to speak like an adult. You know what you sound like? What we in the biz call “Fool who knows just enough to be dangerous but not enough to keep from screwing himself up”.
So go back to school, get an education, and when you can speak with a better vocabulary than your average DM player maybe THEN someone will take you seriously. Until then you’re gonna get treated as what you are, an annoying foul mouthed child.
Look below you Lucas, the loser got all butthurt that somebody modded him down so posted like 15 times how I must be a “faggot” which must be his dirty word of the day or something.
Kinda sad we have a 4channer here, usually you only see his type on Reddit or /. so it must have been a slow news week or something. But reading his “thoughts” on graphics and pixelation is quite humorous, he’s like the prison philosopher character on “In Living Color” where he strings together big words he’s heard without understanding the meaning.
How much you wanna bet he think Linux has electrolytes in it? They give what Linux need ya know!
Dude keep wasting your votepoints. Osnews really matters in the world. Fucking trash.
You know what OSAlert is? A server standing in serverspace, a little computer. And here you hang around to suck dick?
Dude I have even 20 votepoints, didn`t bother to use them. Do you honestly think sitting here at osnews using obviously retarded voting matter for anything? Another major sign, og the lowest fuckwit intelligence. Now go suck Thoms dick, I am sure that is why you are all here.
Oh oh linux people are so evil. The desktop is dead *whine* *whine* Ultimately sucking any corporate dick, expecting the big payoff to the cottaging-line.
Some people know this. Behave like you are a corporation, popstar, or anything that looks good, and these people will suck you dick. Man I could start my own fuckwitnews, and these people would be just as stupid hanging around on my server. You are a fucking joke, and a looser.
You know what you should do? You should kill yourself, so people can laugh, and piss on your grave.
Bassfuckedintheass & garbage retard friends.: And then satan will piss you in the face for eternity in hell. I am sure you are exited about it already.
I mean anyone here piss these people in the face. I`ll give you two dollars. I know that matters in the ghetto you come from.
Translation “Hi I’m a pirate and run XP Tiny, which I got off TPB” since what do you know, that’s about how many things they strip out of XP to make Tiny.
I am not a “pirate” no. But f*ckwit idiots would be to pay for MS when more important things are priority. These are idiots selling a low-quality product. They are not enthusiasts doing excellence and brilliance. But ofcourse you are a corporate whore, singing advertising tunes.
Enthusiasts DO LINUX. That is what intelligent people like.
Ofcourse there is a resolution on the perception of people too. Yours probably is 0.1×0.1 pixels so not much would be understood.
Anyone sane here can read this, and other things on my blog, if you are tired of the feebles of f*ckwits who seem to find other retarded people online, and speak completely against sanity and sense, and verbally attack, rumorize or other, good people.
http://paradoxuncreated.com/Blog/wordpress/?p=4351
Peace Be With You.
WOW … so why is there so many idiots on the Ubuntu Forums?
LOL, you know there are actually fewer idiots there than here. But with mainstream popularity, even fuckwits like you are on Osnews, fierecly arguing your backward opinion. Completely against all sense. And guess what I look up the profile of these idiots, and they advertise “gay”. Some guy in #beos said he was a leader of a youth gay club on some school campus. Another female in there ran a gay club in Norway. The woman critiquing me is the one with the gay in her profile. You don`t look quite well yourself either. OSAlert loves beos. It`s ridiculous, it should be GAY OS News. For men with stiff nipples. For REAL hackers, you are the feeblest idiots ever. Not that I think you`d ever gain a mind to understand that. Go sing your corporate song, not realizing there are people like me in there, (in pain) doing your OS. Fuckwit.
Dudes, and his three friends who moderated me down, and apparently ran out of points. Fucking get a job at microsoft, carrying a diploma around, saying “ms expert”. You`d don`t have to speak the truth or do a sensible thing the rest of your life. Just be a complete fuckwit and proud of it. When people ask how to improve performance on windows you say “no no no not those services”, and get payed for it. WTF. the gig of your life. Your very very meaningless life.
There are few things in life sadder than replying over and over again to your own message in the kernel mailing list.
https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/9/30/78
God has a special place in hell for monogoloids like you, where there is going to be a lot of outhouses, for cottaging. And ofcourse you are still going to proclaim superiority from it.
And btw LKML does not show all messages in that thread, or personal conversations. f–kwit garbage.
Edited 2012-11-01 07:40 UTC
I love how this guy seems to believe that sexual orientation has anything to do with technical skills. It’s about as believable as one’s taste in the colour of socks has anything to do with technical skills.
He also tends to mention “cottaging” quite often in conjunction with mentions of gay as if all gay people were somehow participating in this “cottaging.” I have no idea where he has gotten such ideas. I had never even heard of the term before he mentioned it and I had to google what it means!
There is something tragically humorous about him and how he seems to have this extremely twisted view of the world around him and his own importance. I’d love to know how he’s come to be like that, must be quite a fascinating tale! At any rate he makes me laugh and that’s a good thing, ain’t it?
This is the reality. http://paradoxuncreated.com/Blog/wordpress/?p=38
Not your provocative pushing your repulsiveness in people face, wherever you go, including “gay” in your profile. No straight does that. But people who obsess, must ofcourse put it everywhere, talk about sex, talk about being warm etc. To the repulse of humans.
Wow, tell me more cap’n Obvious. You really mean straight folk don’t put gay in their profile? For reals??? Man, I thought everyone did that, all the time just for kicks.
If you think you’re part of the human race I have bad news for you.
Most strangely entertaining stuff on OSAlert for a while. I think I will stop trolling him now.
Ofcourse youre running, the little sense you have left is recognizing superiority. And so you were “only trolling”.
I AM ATTACKING YOUR GOD, satan, the redcheecked and crosseyed, who thinks too much about his penis. What are you gonna do? Cry and take it more up the ass from anyone?
Btw, Lucas (cranach?) image looks just as demented as pictures of SETH, the egyptian beastgod. They were popular on #beos too, as forinstance “bast”. To no surprise again, by a gay. No doubt, connected to what satan later came to be understood as.
Seeing as the penisfocus have blocked all intelligence, I doubt you will understand much of this, and leave this converation in full conviction, that I am highly superior
Peace Be With You.
lol
I am an atheist, I don’t believe in supernatural creatures.
So me a dude with some stubbly facial hair looks like an Egyptian God …. OOOKAY.
We don’t understand any of it because you are talking gibberish.
You mean Set, not Seth. Seth was the brother of Cain and Abel, Set is the Egyptian deity.
And no, lucas_maximus doesn’t look anything like Set. Might look a bit like Seth though.
Edited 2012-11-03 06:28 UTC
Hah, that last part made me laugh
I love dry humour.
What do you expect werecat, he’s a racist homophobic little coward who only knows how to spew foul language and has the “skillz” of an idiot that has only read the backs of boxes yet doesn’t understand what he read.
Look at his little remarks on pixelation and jitter, the kid is just spewing words without any clue as to their context or meaning and ending up with gibberish. he may as well have wrote “Linux has the flimjam that gives the electrolites of TCP with IP boosted!”
He’s just another little 4channer, sad pathetic little creatures that come to sites like this because they THINK they are “leet” when IRL we all just laugh at how sad and pathetic they sound. And WTF is cottaging? Never heard of it, asked a gay friend and he didn’t know WTF it was either. Sounds like another word he probably picked up which he didn’t understand and just threw it into his limited vocabulary, he reminds me of the Damon Wayans “prison philosopher” character on In Living Color, just spewing large words in streams of nonsense trying to sound more educated than he is…wanna bet he is a HS dropout? I’d say its a pretty safe bet.
LOL, God makes you madder and madder, and I am sure when you learn what cottaging is, you are going to be it`s biggest activist.
LOL wut? You think you’re a “God” now? Have you been taking your meds Timmy? If so you may need to go back to the doc and has the dosage upped.
And frankly, unlike little racist homophobes like yourself, I frankly don’t care WHAT 2 adults do in their own homes, actually I don’t care if you are a furry with a Care bear fetish Timmy, if that makes you happy.
So go back to 4chan, I’m sure THEY think you’re smart, we think you’re just another script kiddie wannabe.
Says the homophobic bible (or is it Quran?) thumper. Oh the irony.
You do realize that straight men get stiff nipples when aroused by a woman, right?
Of course you don’t. You’ve never been with one.
Real hackers don’t give a shit about anyone’s sexual orientation.
If you mean we’ll never know what you’re talking about that’s probably true. That’s not due to any fault of our own though, it’s because you don’t make a lick of sense.
In case you haven’t noticed friend, this kid is what we in the biz call an ID10T, he’s a sad pathetic little fanboi that thinks because he got some pre-pwned copy of Windows off of TPB and couldn’t get it to run it MUST be MSFT’s fault, it couldn’t be the fact that the guy couldn’t catch a clue with a 30 foot net.
And if he thinks Linux holds up? He is welcome to step right up and take the challenge! I will take what is considered “the worst MSFT OS of the decade” Windows VISTA, he can have ANY regular distro, that means something actually designed to be used as a desktop, not some stripped down server OS, that was released the same month as Vista RTM. We’ll load it in a dual boot, I’ll even let him use CLI to install the drivers since at this point he is the system builder and NOT the customer, then we’ll patch both to current using ONLY THE GUI..
I’ve made this challenge on dozens of forums and NONE will step up, wanna know why? because i’ve actually done this same trick with ALL of the popular distros and in every single case while Vista will go through the service packs and hundreds of patches with 100% working drivers and software the Linux distros? BROKEN, ALL OF THEM.
This is the “dirty little secret” they refuse to admit, just look at what has changed since Vista in the community darling Ubuntu…ALSA for Pulse (yeah that was brilliant), and Gnome 2 for Gnome 3 followed by Unity, not to mention major surgery to the wireless subsystems.
So I’m sorry but the fanboi can spew his dirty foul mouth in nerdrage ALL he wants, it won’t make straw into gold and it won’t change the fact that even at HALF the support cycle of a typical Windows release it simply falls apart. You’ll end up spending more time Googling for fixes, going to forums, and trying to find workarounds for all the broken software than you will actually enjoying the thing. Meanwhile I can fire up a game from a decade ago, with a 4 year old GPU and 3 year old CPU on Win 7 X64 patched to latest and what happens? it “just works” time after time.
You are garbage f–kwits
The level I am on, you will never understand. Look forward to a life as a retard, slaving away to any f–kwits whim.
No wonder people like Hitler could tell the masses complete insanity, people like you are too retarded to know the difference.
A satan like yourself, with glowing red cheeks from idiocy.
Edited 2012-11-01 07:36 UTC
Translation..”Be amazed at my tiny penis!”
Please, you couldn’t catch a cold, much less a clue. you are a sad, pathetic little fanboi that wouldn’t know how to do the job of a Best Buy employee, much less anything that required skills.
Go back to 4chan, we won’t miss you.
“Bassbeast” go back to your retarded tube amp from 1950 before the era of hifi, and claim it to be good sound. fuckwit.
But one thing I am learning is who the enemy is. Some may wonder why I bother doing these conversations, but I am compelled to do so, and in surrender to God, such things can be very positive. And know I know. These are mongoloid lustcultivators. Nothing what they makes sense. It is who satanfollowers are. I mean truly, I know who they are, and people elsewhere are debating similary. Simply regurgitating phrases they probably have heard by critics, yet they find no logical coherence.
Religion is alout about conquering ignorance. And this helps alot. Thank you for participating in your own extermination.
Actually, I don’t know of any religion that is about conquering ignorance. Most of them are about finding inner peace and living in harmony with one’s surroundings and oneself, or atleast that’s what they claim; religion is commonly used as a weapon against other people instead of as a tool to bring people together, and you are a rather clear example of this religion-as-a-weapon-of-hatred – group. If hatred is the primary reason for your religion to exist then you don’t need religion at all, you’re perfectly capable of hatred even without it.
Actually werecat while the orinigal goal of religion may have been about finding inner peace, I’d say, at least with regards to most of the mainstream religions out there, instead of “conquering ignorance” its all about PROMOTING ignorance. If you’d like 2 examples from here in the states just look up “legitimate rape” and “women can’t die from pregnancy” both nuggets of “wisdom” being spouted by mainstream politicians and actually backed up by their churches.
But I agree if it wasn’t the cloak of religion he’d find something else to hide behind, growing up in the southern USA I got to see that as we ran off the Klanners, they too used religion as a justification for their hatred of dark skinned people, just as this clown uses religion to cover up the fact he’s attracted to men..
Every time I hear a rampant homophobe like this all I can think of is the old Bobcat bit “I hate you because you’re queer, and its wrong, and you’re kinda cute and attractive and THAT FREAKS ME OUT! So DIE DIE DIE!”, kinda sad though that here we are in the 21st century and the same old racism and bigotry just keep showing up.
The original goal? Not likely – the most popular mythology books are filled largely with quite horrific, brutal, and bloody stories (but of course, any crimes are OK if on the side of the $deity). Plus people were generally more stupid, less educated and concious about themselves & the world, when those myths were collected.
But… “legitimate rape” and “women can’t die from pregnancy” seriously?
Come on, tube amps are awesome.
What? they do? they say? Please, don’t keep us in suspense!
As I seem to recall, quite often religion is about conquering far away lands, steal their stuff and murder anyone who protests.
Basscunt, will probably be first off to the cottage. People will be sitting in chairs waiting to fuck him in the ass on the toilet where a hundred men shat.
Interesting thoughts you have.
With all the homophobia and sexual stuff you connect to technical wisdom you must be missing something. Perhaps recap your hatred and think about whether it could be that you are gay/lesbian, but just don’t know it yet, and therefore have some currently unmeetable sexual desires. Or just make those cottage-ass-f–ks come true, obviously you are thinking a lot about this. But maybe you are missing _any_ humanoid contact IRL, no skin-on-skin-experience or even kisses, in which case you should reorganise your daily routine and get out; plug off the computer for at least one month. You will see, this inter-human-stuff is like snake oil. Or maybe you just fail a lot at what you do and make up for that by trolling in random forums, in the hope it makes you feel better. Dunno.
But you definitely have to do something about your life.
P.S.: Don’t waste your words on me. Your patters are easy to understand, and I already know you will be writing down some permutation of “f–kwit”, “faggot”, “cottage”, “ass-f–k”, “gay”.
Edited 2012-11-03 05:53 UTC
While I’m at posting links related to linux gamming…
“CodeWeavers will be giving away their Wine-Based CrossOver software tomorrow for free.”
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTIxODM
I’m rather surprised there was so little discussion about this. I don’t use Linux on my desktop, but I still grabbed CrossOver Linux just in case I come to have use for it. It sure beats using plain, old Wine in many aspects, one of those being the one-click installers for many things.
To stay on the topic, though, I noticed that Steam’s GUI alone receives only silver for compatibility. Granted, Steam’s GUI is ridiculously bloated and inefficient, but the low compatibility still goes to show that a native port will be welcome. I just hope Valve will make one or another way of launching Windows – games via Wine/CrossOver from the Linux-native client, otherwise many people will have to keep both Windows- and Linux-based clients installed and that’ll feel quite a convoluted solution.
Why do you say its bloated? I just fired it up, its using a whole 54Mb, which considering we ARE talking about a gaming platform is rather small, since most of the games other than the indie stuff takes at least 2Gb+ nowadays.
And as far as inefficient I really don’t know what they would change to make it “better” and it sure as HELL beats GFWL by a country mile. You launch, it has nice little tabs for the various functions, you start typing the name of what you want and it shows up on a list. It also has the $5 games and $10 games in nice little lists on the first page, easy to find, and compared to GFWL its a slice of heaven.
If you want to try bloated and broken accidently buy a game that requires GFWL and see what PAIN with a capital P is. Every time you go to log in you need to do it TWICE, because it seems to auto-sign out on launch, and when you search for a game, while you are ON THE FRICKING PC searching? X360 games, that is ALL it will show you, page after page of X360 games. Hell try to buy DLC for a game, good damned luck. Try finding “Minerva’s Den” for Bioshock 2, I wanted to give it to my oldest since the story is great…can’t find it, can NOT find it ANYWHERE in GFWL, oh they’ll offer me the X360 version but NOT the PC. So if I want to hand him Minerva I’ll end up having to go to TPB because Steam don’t carry it and GFWL is broken and won’t show it to me, even though I already bought it from them once for mine!
So while I wish Valve nothing but luck frankly I can’t find a problem with Steam for Windows, its easy to run, easy to buy from, takes care of all the patches and matchmaking and chat, it “just works” for me and my family and I honestly have no complaints.
Why are you constantly so damn angry? Cool down a little, you’re going to pop a vein!
Because it is. With no window open, with no download, no chat, no nothing going on it takes 87 megabytes on RAM, and when I open the main window RAM-usage jumps to 147 megabytes.
False. It is not a gaming platform per se. It’s merely a front-end to the Steam website plus chat and the necessities needed to manage one’s games and applications. Oh, and Steam DRM, which actually doesn’t take much more than a mere few megabytes.
Apples and oranges. You’re comparing a store front-end to games.
That I agree with, but then again, that was never questioned by anyone.
I actually have several ones. One of my favorites is Batman: Arkham Asylum, which is unfortunately spoiled a bit by GFWL.
I have actually a lot of small niggles and complaints about it. One of the things that often bothers me is how it completely ignores Windows user accounts.
Uhhh…how am I “angry” by pointing out something isn’t bloated? And are you talking about the 32bit, or the 64bit? Because I have noticed there is a difference as far as memory usage. i just launch the store front and with it AND the taskbar window showing my friends list its using a whopping…180Mb..okay…and?
Lets face it, you’re not gaming on anything less than 2Gb anymore, not unless you just like to watch your HDD swap, heck even my $350 netbook has 8Gb now, so Valve spending the time and money to try to shave a few Mb off frankly would just be a wasted effort, as most gamers simply won’t notice. And remember Win 7 shows programs using a little more RAM than they actually do, its just the new way that Win 7 figures in shared bytes and private bytes into a program whereas XP only counted private. If you use something like process explorer you can see the difference in the performance tab, Win 7 gives a program more memory based on its highest private byte usage, which is smart as it means a program is less likely to need more allocated to it later, but it does make programs look a little “fatter” than they actually are. Heck I’ve only got 4 tabs open in Dragon, none of them videos or ads, and its using more memory than Steam.
And Steam isn’t “just a front end” as it has to 1.- Have the ability to “call home” to autoupdate friends lists, 2.- Autoupdate ALL the games you have, 3.- To manage presales and time limits. 4.- To sync saves and screencaps to and from their servers. So its only natural that as your games list grows its gonna have to do more to keep all those games up to date and sync your saves to and from the desktop. I have around 50 titles in mine, many released in the last year, and I can tell you that Steam is having to do a LOT of patching just to keep me up to date, heck TF 2 probably gets patches 3 or more times a week from what I’ve seen.
And thanks for telling me about Batman, I’ll have to remember to avoid that one. I bit the bullet on Bioshock II and Bulletstorm but having to fight the horrible UI that is GFWL is truly a pain, as I’m sure you know. I can’t say anything about Windows accounts since i just built my boys their own machines, but I assume you just log out of your account and the other person logs in with theirs, yes? I can understand why they ignore user accounts though, MSFT has never been friendly about tying things to Windows login, which is why so many corps have to use login scripts. And of course with Win 8 they are trying to tie everything to Live and their own appstore so even if valve had managed to get it to work before they’d probably be cut off now.
But if you have some good ideas please share them with valve, they do have one of the most responsive forums I’ve seen around and their devs do seem to care about making things easier. Again this is in contrast to GFWL where I ended up getting a dozen “Why don’t you like the X360?” when I pointed out how Games for WINDOWS should actually show me WINDOWS games…sigh. At least when I have a problem with Steam I get somebody that is actually helpful and understood the software, dealing with GFWL support was worse than Dell..ugh.
How the heck do you get updates so often? I have ~150 games on my collection and I receive updates only about twice a month.
Let’s say user1 logs into Windows, and then logs into Steam with user1steam – account. He plays a while, then logs out of Windows, and user2 logs in. When user2 logs in to Windows and fires up Steam Steam still tries to log in as user1steam instead of noticing that it’s an entirely different user account that’s in use now.
That is terribly annoying on a computer that is used by multiple people.
It’s got nothing to do with MSFT or login scripts. As I said, I have ~150 games in my Steam collection and most of them honor the user accounts – thing just fine. Steam, on the other hand, is still stuck in the Windows ’95 – days.
I have, and that is actually one thing I’ve seen quite a few other people wanting, too, but Valve just hasn’t seemed too interested in having to re-work most of their client. I understand it’s a lot of work, but still, I hope they’ll come around to it some day.
I have a LOT of DLC…a LOT. I tend to only buy bundle deals, and my two boys like to gift me games, plus many of my games have MP elements and those naturally get more updates to keep cheaters out.
Wow..150 huh? And I thought I liked the Steam sales! Heck with only 50 I have games in there I haven’t gotten to play yet, such as the last 2 Deus Ex. I hear they are great, but I’m having too much fun with the Crysis set I got recently. Of course I’ve had to order another fan for my PC, slamming Dx10.1 on an HD4850 with all the purty I’ve managed to get that card up to 91c…oops. might be time to start looking an an HD6850 huh?
And I didn’t know that about accounts, but I’ve never had to share a PC so there ya go. Nice thing about working at a PC shop, really not hard to get my hands on plenty of parts. But while its not a fix to could probably make a simple script to log off Steam when you log off Windows. You ARE doing a full log off, not user switching? Because naturally Steam should NOT log you out if you use user switching, since your account is still running.
But as I said it would be tricky to do smooth, they would have to catch the Windows log off, stall it logging off long enough for IT to log off, then switch. Considering how anal retentive MSFT has been about speed I can see them not wanting Valve slowing down log off.
Again not as simple as Valve doing it for you, but you should be able to cook up a simple script and have it run on log off. here is the page with the switches for Steam..
https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Command_Line_Options
Maybe that’s the reason. I don’t generally like multiplayer, I’m more interested in the story. I just wish there were more games that could be played through cooperatively, then I’d actually have a reason to buy multiple copies.
Yeah, I’ve been using Steam since 2010 or so, and I have just kind of bought everything even remotely interesting whenever there’s a large sales. Then again, I never buy games when they’ve just launched.
I’m kind of jealous about that :/ I like recycling PC-parts; I try to scrounge up parts whenever I can, build this or that out of them and then donate the outcome to anyone who has use for it. It’s a fun hobby, not to mention quite useful for the other people.
Yes. I wouldn’t say “log off” unless I meant that.
I just googled it. It doesn’t seem hard to do, there’s hundreds of examples of this.
Aye, I noticed there’s a command-line option that could be used when the user logs in. Since I have no better solution I guess I’ll use that. Thanks for the link, though, I hadn’t thought of using command-line options.
Well its not the I LIKE MP games per se, its that when you have a couple of teen boys they naturally want a chance to play with you, so I tend to get games where we can at least play co-op or do some MP to where we can t”team up” against other players. Want some advice? You want a couple of GOOD, FUN co-op games look at Saints Row 3 and Torchlight 2. Nice thing about SR 3 is you don’t all have to have the same DLC, for example the kids got the full DLC packs with all the cars and costumes, i have no desire to dress as a toilet (I swear werecat, you can be a walking crapper in that game if you want) but I can jump in with their crazy cars and tanks and have a good time helping them blast through missions or play through challenges. the only catch is naturally you can’t save their DLC in your closet or garage, but other than that its all good. They often have it on sale and the DLC as well, I paid a whole $12 for mine and $3 for the tanks and Genki car, which is a hoot..”sucking up the bad guys and launching them across the world” is always funny.
And Torchlight 2 is what D3 SHOULD have been, you can play solo offline, LAN, or on the net, and you actually get REWARDED for playing co-op and MP as you each get your own loot, trading is as simple as standing near the other player/s and hitting the “trade” button, and the loot and difficulty go up the more players you have, so if you are trying for the kick ass sets and golden armor playing co-op can increase your chances since all it takes is one guy to have it. I don’t know how many games I’ve played with complete strangers where we spent a good 30 minutes before battle just trading loot, it was like “Hey have you got any of THIS set? Sweet, I got a kick ass weapon for your character class, wanna swap?”. Its really nice, it really makes you play co-op and help each other out against the enemies.
And sorry you don’t have access to the parts, if there is any consolation you usually end up having to buy a part or two to finish it out. A good place for parts many don’t know about is Starmicro.net, they are great for older chips, you can get ’em DIRT cheap from those guys. The only catch is its just what they have in that week, mostly new old stock but a full pulls. For awhile there I was getting Phenom X3s from those guys for $30 a pop, dirt cheap. Really nice guys, great service. And of course geeks.com is great for graphics cards, i’ve bought their refurbs for years with no hassle. that HD4850 gaming card? $30 2 years ago, still plays like a charm. Can’t beat having a 256bit pipe on the GPU, I’ll never go back to 128bit gaming.
And no problemo on the CLI, when in doubt there is usually a way to work around pretty much any problem. I bet a lot of the customers on Steam simply don’t have multi-user PCs so it’s just not a high priority, but as I said more than one way to skin a cat, if Valve don’t give you what you need a simple script dropped in the log in folder can do the job. And as a bonus once you drop it in the log in folder, or use GPEDIT to set it as a group policy object, well you don’t ever have to think about it again, you can even set it up in Task Scheduler if you have Win 7 or better as it now has a much better “at log in” task algo compared to previous Windows versions.
Anyway I hope the suggestions help, happy gaming!
I am not sure if users will make the shift to Linux at all.
People that play on Steam have Windows running and most of the times also other games that are non steam.
Even if i applaud the attempt to open the gate for Linux, i am not convinced that Linux will the new gaming platform in the future. Of course it can be, but i just can’t imagine it.
Unless of course MS goes out of business.
It seems more like an option and testing what they can do with Linux and building demand on Linux.
If its running i will try it out but Linux has still some obstacles. With my 7 year old motherboard i always have problem even to get my Logitech webcam to be recognized.
If we would get Android for desktop maybe all that would change. How knows.
Steam is an app store subject to the same economic, legal and cultural restraints as any other.
I don’t see Valve leading the charge to push “adult” content in gaming beyond the M or M+ ratings or their global equivalents.
In other media, there are thousands, tens of thousands, of titles available that successfully and profitably target an adult audience — without indulging an adolescent’s taste for explicit violence and porn.
Microsoft wants to use the Windows Store to create a more urban and sophisticated image of the Windows marketplace. The M rated game has a place in that strategy.
But L.A. Noire makes a better fit then Duke Nukem Forever.