A First Look at Longhorn

Have you even used Longhorn? You remind me of the countless Linux-loving idiots who’ve never even taken the time to try Windows before flaming it.

Wow, I’m “so surprised” this turned _again_ into a flamewar. Linux is turning into a religion.

Read the comments before you start spouting religion. You can’t say anything against people on the Windows side now without being accused of being religious.

We’ve got some people telling us that you have everything you need on a Windows CD (not true), and start comparing that to a Linux distribution with multiple CDs with a lot of different software on them. That isn’t true either.

You make it sound as if its all one-sided!

If you don’t like windows, please just don’t read it and please, write your comments for youself only.

Alright then. Tell that to the people who insist on telling everyone how great it is based on ‘betas’, ‘leaked builds’ and releases from Microsoft PR.

Where can you download it and is it free? I remember back long ago I had to pay to try win98 once. That was the first and last time being so dumb for me.

I can see a developer doing it but no one else.

“Ha,,,I wonder how many security holes Longhorn already has?”

Most likely the same ones as previous NT systems. I haven’t heard about any changes to the operating system (just an SQL server laid into the filesystem browser and a 3d desktop). I haven’t been too big into Longhorn so maybe I missed them talking about kernel improvements and other base changes?

Anyway, I think this “the theme was stolen from OS X” thing is a big load. Who cares? Crystal icons from Everaldo are quite similar to OS X icons, but I don’t here people crying about his work? Who cares if it looks the same, if everyone notices that then everyone will notice it. Seems kinda shallow to complain about the themes look in beta software.

The 3d desktop is cool, but in the end it’s mostly just eye candy. Yes it can be a performance boost (a slight one), but I still hold that it’s largely eye candy. I guess it could help you bring an old machine from antiquity with a new gfx card, but not with the other longhorn additions. I’d like the eye candy, but I think for now I am quite happy with my “flat” window manager.

“But does anyone out there like Windows from a technical point of view?”

Yes.

All I see is Windows XP regurgitated with some features imported in from MSN Exlorer.

Hey guys, this is getting too serious now. Chill guys. I think the Windows/linux flame war will rage on without this thread. Let’s try to keep it professional and on topic.

Just a thought, though.

I use windows xp AND linux, and I love them both for their respective purposes, gaming and serving. There is good in both, you know.

Keep the peace.

Am I the only one that thinks 3D mode is more or less hacked. Have to get this build and try.

Shadows are not even nearly as they should when using this angle of Windows. Thay look just the same and same opacity as shadows of flat Windows in non AltTab mode.

So either they use hack to draw shadows or it’s just mapped 3D on 2D non rectangular Window with position and front overlaping.

You probably are.

I didn’t notice, or really care to. It just looked pretty cool when I tried it. If so, what do you expect with a build?

All I see is Windows XP regurgitated with some features imported in from MSN Exlorer.

thats exactly what I thought

@Richard Steiner: http://slashdot.org/articles/03/08/08/0437218.shtml

@David:

Ooh, where to start… Okay, I think I’ll take your post in reverse, building up from the trivial matters to the clinching ones.

“I know enough to know that you do not get ‘everything you need’ on a Windows CD. Have you looked properly at Windows, or even used a Linux distribution and seen what you get in it? From your comments I’m judging no to all of the above.”

Firstly, the box beside me is currently running Fedora Core 2; just finished installing it, and there’s a few surprises when compared to Fedora Core 1. Firstly, it detected my sound card. Secondly, their GUI is starting to take on a semi-professional look, although the cartoony icons are starting to wear thin. Would’ve preferred to see my pal Everaldo’s icons used instead, but still… there’s always aftermarket iconpacks and themes.

Still, there’s something not quite right with the system. Applications still take too long to load, and they’re still using the godawful Mozilla instead of Epiphany, which is a shame considering the system is Gnome-focussed. Spatial nautilus is just as inefficient as the original Windows 95 shell was, with it’s window-per-directory system. Overall, an annoying and inefficient GUI. Yes, I know these things can be disabled and adjusted, but it shouldn’t ship like this.

Oh, and if I hadn’t “looked properly at Windows”, I wouldn’t be a Technical Evangelist.

To clarify a few things about Blackcomb, on the old roadmaps (circa 2000), Blackcomb was THE main sucessor to Windows XP; it incorporated the RedShark components, which were demoed in the pre-whistler “Codename Neptune” build 5111, which was released around the time that Windows 2000 went final.

Longhorn was later inserted when the features that were planned for Blackcomb were too ambitious to perfect with today’s current market and technology. One of the major halting points for Blackcomb were the DoJ lawsuits, which also affected the development of Internet Explorer. You people can complain about standards compliance all you want, but it’s the PUBLIC’s fault that IE isn’t being updated.

One final point, it’s all very well saying that Longhorn has a 3D-Accelerated GUI; but to say it has a Three-Dimensional Interface, which is what Paul Thurrott claimed, is complete and utter bullshit, and you know it.

Wow, I think that just put the nail in the coffin right there.

“expensive, broken, and useless OS”?

“a product that never improves”

Have you ever actually used more than one generation of Windows? Have you ever even used Windows full stop?

Re: “That’s irrelevant; Windows comes with everything you need on a single CD; Linux uses multiple CDs, end of.”

Have you used any other distro besides Fedora? Most distros install with one CD and those that include extra CDs are for the additional free software, tools and drivers. SuSE Linux Personal 9.1 is only one 32-bit CD but the Professional version includes 5 32-bit CDs and a double sided DVD. First CD is the install disc containing the OS with basic apps to get you started and the other 4 are software, tools, source code and additional drivers). You also have the option of just using the double sided DVD (side A is 32-bit OS with apps and side B is 64-bit with apps). Side A is 3.84 GB and side B is 3.33 GB. This is all packaged with printed manuals for both Admin/User and 3 months free technical support. SuSE Linux Professional 64-bit offers a wider range of CPU support now for the consumer instead of later such as Microsoft’s WinXP 64-bit.

Please explain what exactly has Microsoft offered in any of their Windows releases that is similar to what Novell releases in SuSE Linux Professional 9.1? If you need to compare see these links below.

SuSE Linux Pro vs WinXP Pro cost comparison:

http://www.suse.com/en/private/products/suse_linux/prof/winprice.ht…

Product comparision:

http://www.suse.com/en/private/products/suse_linux/prof/pers_prof.h…

As a final note I agree with other Linux posters that say they have good reason to comment on Longhorn and Microsoft’s lack of security, support and delayed releases. After all I was myself a long time user of Windows and have learned I don’t have to take their excuses any longer. Not all Linux distros are the same but when comparing SuSE Linux to Windows XP, 2003 and Longhorn I’ll put my money on SuSE any day. Specially considering Microsoft has yet to offer anything close to what is offered in SuSE Linux Pro 9.1 at the same cost to the consumer.

of course. There are valid reasons for using linux, OSX or whatever. Most people don’t know about the alternatives so people say linux is the best choice. Some might say OSX depending on the conversation. Usually the only reason to use M$ is dependancy. A reason that is not very good to say the least.

But hey if m$ works for you. Good. For the millions of other people it doesn’t.

Its fine for any company to make money. Not to cheat steal, or sell bad products. But to make money like every other company. SuSE, Sony Nissan etc. Don’t sell usless crap over and over again brakiing hundrends of laws m$ did.

People who pick on small things as a $ only makes you look really really immature but also gives a reason to not really take your opinion worth a grain of salt.

I didn’t really see anything there that really impresses me in light

of the current offerings with Macintosh OS X.

And just top it off if anyone was wondering…

I still use linux, mainly for serving duties. Trying to get it where I need it for a more permanent place in my workstation, but many challenges have prevented it thus far. Still driving on with it though.

Sorry, I disagree. Read comments associated with anything Microsoft, or anything that compares one OS’s feature against others and all comments degenerate into the same childish “my daddy is bigger than yours” crap. It’s hopeless. I think people who actually want to *learn* and *reason* don’t say the things that get said in these comments every single day.

I am not sure if this is OSAlert’s fault for sometimes posting such content-free articles such as that one about a “review” of a Mac from an ex-windows user’s perspective that offered *nothing* of value, as was widely discussed, but that *still* generated an endless OS flamewar. Or maybe it’s just the users that you are left with when you can’t say anything without a snide comment from people with a superiority complex that they get from a freaking *operating system*. It’s truly a sad spectacle.

microsoft always say they are not worried by linux, however although longhorn is still years away, microsoft has filled longhorn with loads of eye-candy that will demand greater pc power.

Perhaps Microsoft is in on a conspiracy to force consumers to buy better and more powerful computers! After all, who can resist pretty eye candy?

No, the evangelists who write about Windows are evangelists. The people are still people.

Do you people even have a clue about waht you’re talking about? Why the hell do you always have to base your opinions on the opinions of others, or on screenshots, or whatever? Maybe if you actually did some research into this stuff, you wouldn’t sound like such flame-baiting idiots when it comes to the clinch.

To compare the Sidebar to the NeXTSTEP dock is pure idiocy; the NeXTSTEP docks were shortcut bars; the sidebar is a place where third-party applications can drop in custom XAML-based tiles to provide functionality to users from a centralized location. It’s a way for third party developers to integrate wtih the Windows UI and deliver content to users in a more coherent way than simply flashing up message boxes.

Everything currently a part of Longhorn, with the exception of DWM/DCW – WinFS, Avalon, the .NET Framework 2.0 – is available to developers through the pre-release of Visual Studio .NET 2005 (Codename “Whidbey”), these things aren’t vaporware; they’re here NOW. If you attended PDC or WinHEC, you will have been given a copy of both Longhorn and VS .NET 2005, and you can start playing with it yourself. If you weren’t lucky enough to attend those events, you could just pop onto IRC and download a copy for yourself; it’s not like MS cares, considering they’re only preview releases.

So stop whinging, stop spreading unbiased FUD, and take a look for yourself. Because until you do, you’re still just blithering idiots.

You’re missing the point. The whole point about the sidebar is integration. Everything in the new Pillars of Longhorn is available to a developer working with a Longhorn application; all of this functionality can be plugged into the sidebar. Predefined classes for web communication, graphical effects, UI scalability, rich storage, etc. It’s all there. THAT’S what Longhorn brings to the equation, and that’s what the Sidebar is there to present.

that was a fair enough post. you have given us your experiences with linux, but can I ask, did you ever get any friends to try out linux ?

I have. I talked a few friends into installing linux, even managing to get a complete windows fanboy to try mandrake 10 as the only os on his laptop. I was expecting him to try it for a day or two, then reformat and re-install windows. he is still using it today.

He was someone who used his pc as a tool for apps, now as well as doing that, he said he is increasing his understanding of the way computers work.

He almost always uses gui tools, and phones me if he gets stuck on the command line. but the thing is, he likes what he can do on linux and I think, even if he does put windows back on the laptop, that it will be as multiboot rather than a single os.

I have other friends who tried linux and did not like it, either the look and feel, or a specific app they used was incompatible, so they went back to windows. but they also phone about the latest virus, trojan, worm etc.

You mentioned that linux will be hit by more and more virus’s as its popularity increases, I disagree with that. If the usage of linux v windows was reversed, there would be nowhere near the amount, i fact the only virus ever released for linux was a theoretical virus, that would only install if the user gave it permission, ran the virus, and then gave it write permissions to other files… then it would only infect files on the users home directory… Granted, that is where the users personal files are stored, and it is one of the most important parts on any system. but how successful is a virus that needs the users help to run correctly, and cannot copy itself to other computers or even to damage system files.

“just what we wanted another crappy version of windows to make linux look a lot better. thanks microspat.”

And every new version of Linsux that I see really makes me appreciate how nice it is to use an OS that JUST PLAIN OLD WOKRS! Ahh, it can be fun being a troll sometimes!

As opposed to the clinical, cutting edge research you do? Where’s Blackcomb then? What kind of 3D GUI do you think can be created if it isn’t just 3D and hardware accelerated?

http://www.3dtop.com

http://research.microsoft.com/adapt/TaskGallery/

Both very inefficient, but nonetheless three-dimensional, desktop environments.

And surely you realize that Fedora Core is a free distribution? People try their best working on free distributions, but there is no commercial support and backing for a release, so comparing it with Windows is a bit silly. There is always going to be some problems – that’s why it’s free. Buy Suse 9.1 or something, and then compare, and compare the direct support you get from Suse and Microsoft. You’re probably one of those people who think Red Hat is Linux.

As a matter of fact, i own a copy of SuSE 9.0 Professional, as well as Mandrake 9; I was marginally happier with the synergy in SuSE 9.0 than in FC2, but as it was using Kernel 2.4 it was painfully slow. It may also interest you to know that I paid the SCO licensing fee in order to use SuSE 9.0.

Because you keep coming along with bogus screenshots?

Er, what?

Oh God, he’s talking about the pillars . The sidebar is a 100% rip-off of Samurize, and Microsoft had to have it. Integration is the usual meaningless buzzword. Karamba, Samurize or NextStep have all had this integrated into the desktop – even from a development perspective.

Rip-off of Samurize? Wow, that’s quite a feat. I can only assume that Microsoft invented a time machine some time in the past, considering the Sidebar concept originated in early 2001, with the internal development of Microsoft SideShow, a standalone Longhorn-style Sidebar designed to run on Windows 2000 and above, powered by XML.

For a little bit of evidence here, Sideshow 1.0.27, which was released roughly 9 months after SideShow entered internal beta, was released on the 30th of January 2002 – a good five months before the first public preview of Samurize.

This is the kind of research I’m talking about.

Now, I am trying to get them on board with it, but I just look like a fool preaching the linux gospel when my friend installs and plays UT2004 on his XP box with ease and in like 15 minutes, and the whole time he is watching me and laughing and shooting out the “come on, what’s a matter linux boy?” comments as I have to struggle to even get my 3D working on my linux box.

Now for me its been totaly opposit! i ad to fight with windows just to get anything done. The problems that I had win the earlier windows OS was still there with the new ones. If I installed something a few days later the OS will start to crumble. everything hardware wize worked where as if I was running windows, even the drivers bulit for that hardware and that version of windows simply didn’t work properly and then I had to go hunting around for a oatch, assuming there was one.

My friends chose to stay with XP simply because it is easier to administer, period.

Hmmmm. Welp. Again, opposit for me. Even with an AV, fire wall and an add aware program. The system would still get infected or I start having stability issues because of all thge patches brought on by said software.

The very same friend who laughs at me when trying to run games on my linux box

Well. As far as games are concerned I use a concole for that and I’m happy for it.

said he didn’t like linux for everyday duties because of the fact that he had to do what I did in trying to get stuff working,

Compared to constant reboots, slowdowns and currupt files and programs. Linux for me has been a dream to run for everyday duties!

All Linux’es are modular. So almost every hardware out there can work with Linux without a hitch. For me this has been a big pluse. I do not have to hunt around for drivers and/or driver support or simply blame ‘3rd party gohsts’ because something didn’t work right. If anything its a matter of plugging it in and your done. I’ve never seen that with windows!

Hmmm. My parents use Red Hat 9 while my sister and her boyfriend use SuSE and they can use their webcams and even use MSN chat with yahoo. Interesting problem.

So, yes I have convinced others to try out linux, and failed to keep them going with it, but all that is important for me right now is to get a workable linux system with the hardware I have right now, and I find that very difficult to do, and consequently I look like an ass recommending linux to my other hardcore gaming elite friends

I never understand people that use computers for games anyways. A concole IMO is MUCH better!

and windows power users who sit there and watch me day in and day out screwing with my box when linux is on it.

the trick to Linux, I belive is to use less work. I was much of the same way as you when I finaly got the message. The more I fiddle with it the worse it got (although it did teach me quite a few things.)

In windows I was used to tweeking with it all the time. Mainly because you had to just to keep it running. But it linux, such a thing is noty nesessary. I use Red Hat 9 at home as well as SuSE. For red hat I use apt-get for most of my programs. For SuSE I use yast for its basic maintence. If I needed an extra program, lets say p2p. I can google and find amule complete with all its dependancies.

I found Linux for computing extreamly well built.

To a degree yes. Linux does and will have viruses, no doubt . Just not as the windows world has. This has all to do with the *nix arcutecture. Whether it be Linux BSD or OSX. Security will always be tighter on a *nix platfourm. This is just by design default!

Hey Solaris.

Now for me its been totaly opposit! i ad to fight with windows just to get anything done. The problems that I had win the earlier windows OS was still there with the new ones. If I installed something a few days later the OS will start to crumble. everything hardware wize worked where as if I was running windows, even the drivers bulit for that hardware and that version of windows simply didn’t work properly and then I had to go hunting around for a oatch, assuming there was one.

I don’t know where all the problems with windows are coming from. I just don’t see it. I insert a cd or floppy the add hardware dialog box comes up asking for the driver software for it and plug in the path and boom, installed. It may require a reboot, but such is life with windows.

Even with an AV, fire wall and an add aware program. The system would still get infected or I start having stability issues because of all thge patches brought on by said software.

Well, it sounds to me that you have to be careful when surfing, or get better AV software AND keep it current. The only thing about windows and the internet is that you have to be somewhat cautious about which sites you hit and what to click and open. But that isn’t something that Norton Antivirus can’t head off at the pass. I have been using the same copies Zonealarm Pro and of Norton Antivirus Corporate Edition for 3 years, and since using them, I haven’t been infected, ever, believe it or not. Norton quarantine’s all the culprits before infection. Stability issues because of patches? How? Please explain.

Well. As far as games are concerned I use a concole for that and I’m happy for it.

I’m happy for you too. Many windows users enjoy hardcore gaming at super high resolutions and blazing speed on their boxes though, linux needs to convince the software vendors to get on board if they want to capture the windows gaming crowd. If linux could assure windows users of effortless hardcore game installation and playability and the titles to boot, believe you me, many would switch, completely.

All Linux’es are modular. So almost every hardware out there can work with Linux without a hitch. For me this has been a big pluse. I do not have to hunt around for drivers and/or driver support or simply blame ‘3rd party gohsts’ because something didn’t work right. If anything its a matter of plugging it in and your done. I’ve never seen that with windows!

Oh so very wrong. For vanilla boxes yes, almost every piece of hardware will work in linux without a hitch. What about the more exotic hardware many Windows users paid money for and found out they couldn’t use in the same capacity that they could in windows? ATI All-in-Wonder cards, Logitech Quickcam webcams and Hardware IDE Raid controllers for example. I have three of them, and I find out that none of them are compatible with linux as HARDWARE raid controllers. That is not linux fault in many cases, blame the vendors for that. But support could be made better with those that are supposed to be included, as recompilation of the friggin kernel is required to get the functionality that was intended for the purchase of the hardware. So software raid is many times the only option. Well, those who bought the hardware raid controller and had it working in that capacity in windows just blew probably $50 when switching to linux as they could have just went with a regular PCI-IDE card. My Logitech Quickcam 4000 pro needs a kernel recompile last time I checked, and for All-in-Wonder functions I had to search far and wide for a fix with my All-in-Wonder VE, and that fix wasn’t easy.

And going to the website and installing drivers for all of those things in windows is not that hard. It was much less time consuming and less difficult than recompiling the linux kernel to get that stuff working.

My parents use Red Hat 9 while my sister and her boyfriend use SuSE and they can use their webcams and even use MSN chat with yahoo. Interesting problem.

Can they use their webcams with Kopete? I haven’t tried it yet with my SuSE 9.1 Pro (trying to get it to format and mount all the hard disks on my highpoint 404 raid controller, a SuSE 9.1 bug I think, so I have yet to successfully install). I know it couldn’t happen with Kopete in Xandros. I would like to know so I can conference using Kopete on MSN with my best friend in Japan.

I never understand people that use computers for games anyways. A concole IMO is MUCH better!

Many folks stopped using consoles years ago (such as myself). As consoles and their games can costs a bit of money over time. So, I just use my computer for the gaming. And Half-life 2 and Doom 3 will be a much better experience graphically and input-wise on the PC than their console PORTS will ever be.

I found Linux for computing extreamly well built.

I agree too. It is getting it to do all that you want to do is the trick (as per my above comments).

Had to drop this in with a second post, just to underline the severity of your stupidity here.

Well you calling them ‘IRC monkies’ don’t help. Typical M$ zealot.

To start with, what the hell does Microsoft zealousy have to do with an aversion to IRC? I’m the founder of an 800 user channel which deals almost purely with Microsoft Beta software, which has a strong and healthy 4-year history of serving beta and alpha releases to users, and supporting these releases as any good distributor is expected to.

(and longhorn is just a ton of fluff so far, (You’re an idiot) I don’t see why they can’t just update XP like Apple does with OSX…) Ever heard of service packs?

How is Microsoft limiting Linux users’ choice? Do you mean that you can’t buy a computer with Linux pre-installed? Why shouldn’t OEM’s have the freedom to ignore whatever OS they choose? Are you entitled to being able to buy a computer with Linux pre-installed? The big stink about forcing OEMs to only bundle Windows was nasty, I agree. But again, what does contract law have to do with an article discussing the technical issues of Longhorn?

Is it software pattents? I don’t see Microsoft being any more of a threat than any other company. I’ve never heard Microsoft sending cease-and-decist letters to themes.org the way Apple did. (I can almost hear the trolls say ‘t4t’s becuz m$ os r Ugly and n0body c4rez d00dz.’) Again, what does this have to do with the technical advantages and disadvantages of Longhorn?

All of the other technologies you list do not diminish anything about the equivalent technologies on Linux. Develelopers are free to choose.

BOFH said: You’re missing the point.

I think you are the one missing the point BOFH. You seem to be set on defending the Sidebar as an original Microsoft conception. But like so many ideas it draws from earlier technology. Someone once famously said there are no new ideas and this proves strikingly so quite often. Perhaps Microsoft has done something new with the whole Sidebar idea, but its useful remains to be seen in my opinion.

Phil said: The NeXTSTEP dock ran third party applets.

Thank you for the supporting evidence Phil.

well ken, one of my email address’s is always in my post, so if you do need help, feel free to give me a shout on there, same goes for anyone else.

I agree with some things you was saying, kopete does need some access to webcam, indeed, webcams need more work done with them.

you seem to be someone who wants to try linux, but is having a bad experience with it, don’t get me wrong, I use it as my primary operating system but I have problems too.

My tv card for example, will not always scan british tv stations properly, and it will sometimes set the standard for ntsc or secam, I have tried numberous versions of tv software and numberous configs, but now and again it will still revert back.

Other problems I have found is in filesystem formats. My pc loves reiserfs, everything runs nice and snappy in that, ext3 seems really slow in comparison, and xfs and jfs are a little faster than ext3, but they are inducing a big memory overhead.

I have worked it out that if I have / and /usr on reiserfs /home on ext3 and /var on xfs and /tmp on ext2 my machine runs like a dream.

I have the speed I need for the system but the security of ext3 for my personal files.

3d support is almost always very simple to get working properly, I have only once had hassle, and that was when I tried to use a machine that had a sis 32mb card in it, it would only work on vesa drivers as the sis ones would not work properly. vesa drivers and 3d support is a big no-no

so any time you need a hand, give me a shout on there and I will see if there is anthing I can do.