At GUADEC, Owen Taylor and the other GTK+ developes got to discuss the future of the toolkit.
On the Future of GTK+
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSAlert.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli
I’m eager to hear more about the Icon List. I’ve been wanting to work on something that may just benefit from that.
Did I miss it or are they only talking about new _features_?? What I would like to see are some serious _performance fixes_ especially in regard to pango.
I want my Eclipse-GTK running equally well on Linux as on windows!!!
Greets
Franz
Is the slow performance of Eclipse-GTK a Java issue or a GTK-2 issue?
The discussions on bugzilla indicate a problem with pango.
I really think they should iron out their performance-issues. I used to be a huge Gnome-fan once but then I tried KDE and QT and I won’t return to Gnome and GTK until it is as “quick” as QT. It’s not a coincidence that so many people think that GTK is slow, it simply must be.
It’s “slower”, not “slow”.
I wonder if there is any communication between the GTK-Developers and the Eclipse-developers regarding the performance issues?
It is a GTK-2 issue, Java’s not at fault there, GTK really needs some steriod-type drugs to make it go faster. I’m just waiting for the day. Then we get to see GTK with Roid rage, getting angry at its fellow toolkits.
— It’s “slower”, not “slow”.
Thats the truth. I find it more then fast enough for me. Frankly, any speed I gained by using KDE was so minor that it made no difference to me at all, and was certainly not worth using that atrocious DE. A fresh, default install of KDE looks like somthing vomited on my screen its so cluttered and ugly.
I did notice that KDE does have one real advantage on Gnome though… it can display files in muli-column lists. Thats somthing I used to use all the time in Windows, and I still miss it in Nautilus, which only has regular icon view and a “detailed” list view.
I just tried Eclipse-GTK 3.0. It really is slow on an Athlon XP 2500+ system; Granted, I need to try MonoDevelop later to compare whether it’s an IDE/Toolkit/VM issue or the combination of them……
Hopefully, once it is moved to Cairo it will speed up brilliantly, especially since Cairo can use glx
I develop in gtk and think it is a brilliant toolkit. There are one or two features missing, but there are always work arounds.
Remember that QT has alot of money behind it and costs a hell of alof of money, Gtk is free :-), and its improving
>> Copy-Paste from future-rendering-slides.pdf
>>
>> New theme system
>> ● Multi-layered
>> – Top layer represents widgets, has idea of layout
>> – Bottom layer represents boxes, arrows, etc.
>> ● Declarative
>> – config files not code
>> ● Careful specification
>> – Multiple producers, multiple consumers
>> ● Standard file formats
>> – XML, CSS(?)
Yay! Nice to see they’re planning to revamp the Gtk+ theme system. It would be awesome if things like this: http://members.shaw.ca/lucx/ could be done for Gtk+ (and I mean polished, not hard coded by some l33t programmer who doesn’t care about looks – let the real artists make things look good instead).
Too bad we’ll have to wait yet another year for that.
The Motif port is much faster (up to par with the windows version) and ditto for the fox port (which is a community effort)
Don't get it wrong eclipse speed is ok but, given the fact that recent swing incarnations on Linux (blackdown and jdk 1.5) even are faster than native gtk apps there must be something done in the speed area.
Watch the slow menu redraws or slow-loading listboxes (code completion) of Netbeans and compare it to an application like Anjuta. Compare the performance ANY Java2D/Drawing app to a gtk one such as GIMP or Dia. Observe the system memory/cpu usage of any gtk app vs. an equivalent java one.
Now, explain how java is “faster than native gtk apps”.
So we have EWL( E Widget Library ) wich is based on Evas.
if we could weed EWL and GTK that could result in quite some awesome speed. To my knowledge Evas is one of the fastest and most feature rich Canvas’s. You just have to try Evas apps. they are more than responsitive. Especially with an Hardware accellerated backend.
kindest regards,
mo
@ GUADEC
http://stream1.hia.no
Major thanks to the GStreamer team for funding the OGG Theora project!
It depends on the JDK you use… compare the SwingSet2 with a typical GTK2 app.
If you go for a plain Sun 1.4 JDK the GTK app wins.
But if you go for Blackdown JDK 1.5 or 1.4RC2 then Swing is pretty much up to the speed of Qt and much faster than GTK2.
The Eclipse Sluggishness basically comes down to GTK2. It is only a tad slower than most other GTK2 apps, you can see that at the rendering speed of the components which is up to par to GTK2 but compared to Qt apps it is much slower and even to the Motif and other ports which use different toolkits.
I am not saying it is unbearable but the speed difference can't really be neglected and given the state of newer VMs like JDK 1.5 or Blackdown GTK2 really falls behind which shouldnt be since real world C still is much faster than java.
> Watch the slow menu redraws or slow-loading listboxes (code completion) of Netbeans and compare it to an application like Anjuta.
Have you tried java 1.5? I used to abhor running desktop Java applications, but java 1.5 seems to fix most of the performance issues.
GTK is horribly slow in Eclipse. I would estimate that the Windows and FOX versions of Eclipse are about twice as fast. At least that is how it seems to me.
because as every developper they all have blazingly fast machine in order to improve their productivity..
so when you own a P4 up to >3ghz or an athlon something with 1 go de ram and 2,8 ghz.. you don’t suffer from slow redraw…
the gtk widget will draw at 50 or more fps and the native one at 100 or more, so once the humains eyes can only notice 25 fps, they just don’t get it……..
maybe they should run their libs on 500 mhz machine (wich is still really fast for any need except hardcore gaming and digital encoding)…….
I wonder why there isn’t no tests suite chain to mesure the graphics reactivity of libs….
numbers will talk.
I agree with one of submitters : it’s not a matter of X because Motif apps are a lot faster than gtk2 one…… so what motif can acheive, or qt why not gtk2 ???
Well, considering the difference in perf when I use kontact and when I use evolution (or any gtk2 app) I’d say there’s some serious work to be done somewhere to fix the performance issue.
I’m using a P3 933MHz (512Mb) with Linux Mandrake 9.2 and SuSE 9.1
It’s not a top notch config anymore but I don’t consider it that lame either…
http://people.redhat.com/otaylor/guadec5/future-rendering-slides.pd…
Is it just me, or is the “future of GDK” really ugly? Look at the code samples and how mish-mashy they are. Their idea of “better GTK+ integration” is passing along a cairo_t with the GdkDrawable? Why not subsume cairo_t into GdkDrawable? And look at page 19, and all the Cairo-specific stuff you have to do to use the Cairo back-end. Hopefully, the final API design won’t look anywhere near this bad…
Remember that QT has alot of money behind it and costs a hell of alof of money, Gtk is free
Since when GPL version of QT has costed something? *tries to think hard*
QT is more free than GTK, that’s a fact. GTK isnt GPL, QT is.
reminds me of the win32 api, with all the struct passing and c stuff…
GTK+ is LGPL… so it is more free.
“because as every developper they all have blazingly fast machine in order to improve their productivity..
so when you own a P4 up to >3ghz or an athlon something with 1 go de ram and 2,8 ghz.. you don’t suffer from slow redraw… ”
Now were making up things. This isn’t “commercialware”, this is OSS. Not everyone in either the GTK, nor GNOME development camp has “blazing” anything. Why don’t you ask them what they actually have? You might be surprised. Could the speed of GTK and GNOME be better? Certainly.
“QT is more free than GTK, that’s a fact.”
No, that’s your opinion.
Cheers,
Johan
Dude, don’t even try to start the ‘eyes don’t see more than 25 fps’ nonsense. Play a game at 25fps and at 60fps, and tell me you don’t SEE the difference. The reason why TV is 25fps in PAL (interlaced. making it 50fps effectively) is because starting at 25 FPS or so, our brain registers it as a fluent animation instead of a slide show.
If you would always see everything at 25fps, your head would hurt, really
It make me remember a famous scene in the Amadeus movie.
When the king want to critizise mozart on his work, but found nothing to say. Rosini-Rossenberg said, too many notes. So the king go ahead with that point (which is base on truth). “There is too many notes… There is a maximum of notes an person can hear in the course of an evening” Then ,Salieri Agreed, Mozart said : “this is absurd”
So we laught, knowing that it was absurd.
Know then, we repeat that scene, but with fps.
Funny isn’t?
I got Eclipse 3.0 final working again with GTK 2.4. This is the first time I have ever dual booted a system, but on my laptop (IBM X31 thinkpad) The GTK version is as fast or faster than the Windows version.
Now there are a number of differences in the install (2.6.7 Kernel compiled to the processor type, less memory usage, blah, blah) but that is the way it goes. This surprised me because the GTK version has always felt slower before but I never did a comparison on the same hardware. I have only been working in my smaller workspaces and maybe it will slow down, but so far I am impressed.
I miss the good old GTK1.2 days, when apps ran good on my old 64M Celeron. Honestly, why are Linux developers chasing the M$ monkey with eye-lard.
I think it’s hard to determine when performance is good enough. The simple upgrade of hardware may make you change opnion.
Some people avoid KDE like hell, because it’s slow or uses too much memory. But hey, their 500MHz 128MBs of RAM can play nicer with more lightweight solutions.
“I miss the good old GTK1.2 days, when apps ran good on my old 64M Celeron. Honestly, why are Linux developers chasing the M$ monkey with eye-lard.”
reason is better infrastructure. gtk 2 comes with pango and stuff which is unicode based and a much better system at the cost of speed.
“I miss the good old GTK1.2 days, when apps ran good on my old 64M Celeron. Honestly, why are Linux developers chasing the M$ monkey with eye-lard.”
Run fine on my 700 celeron, runs fine on my 350 PII, ran fine on my Cyrix 224MHz; what are you whining about? And I use the Nuvola theme on my PII!
I don’t think M$ is really chasing eye-lard, not until Longhorn at least. You’ll notice the visualizations in XP were thrown together badly and aren’t very good at all. I think they probably actually put more work into other things there. And even with Longhorn, they seemed more excited about meta-file systems than a 3d desktop.
Apple is the eye-lard company. I’d love to stick a GPU monitor on something running OS X and watch how much energy it wastes. Yea it’s pretty, but I’m not up for using the graphics card as a secondary heat generator in your lap. At least they allow the majority of the pointless effects to be turned off, that’s good design.
I’d like to see Gtk+ running on a 3d accelerated X server, oh wait Looking Glass does that doesn’t it? I bet it isn’t “slow” anymore…
Only slow part I notice on Gtk+ is the stupid resize, and it doesn’t even seem to be an efficiency thing, it just doesn’t use much CPU power. Is there a timer in there guys? The only times it’s really bad though are with xchat transparency (likely xchat’s fault) and with huge lists like rhythmbox.
“I just tried Eclipse-GTK 3.0. It really is slow on an Athlon XP 2500+ system;”
i use it with a 1800+ with 512mb under suse 9.1 and it’s fast
faster than other release, not need to wait when i click into menu…
very happy for this release
Thats the truth. I find it more then fast enough for me.
Unfortunately, when you take GTK into the wider world that isn’t good enough. Certainly, not when you talk about the way that Gnome and Linux on the desktop has been hyped as an answer to enterprizes and businesses the world over.
Frankly, any speed I gained by using KDE was so minor that it made no difference to me at all, and was certainly not worth using that atrocious DE. A fresh, default install of KDE looks like somthing vomited on my screen its so cluttered and ugly.
Doesn’t matter unfortunately. The issue is whether the features are there, whether the infrastructure is there, whether the toolkits are up to snuff and whether it is a platform for development. That’s where the hard work is. GTK and Gnome are definitely not, and no one is going to look at it no matter how usable it is.
Unfortunately you can’t fake all that by telling everyone how unusable, cluttered and vomit-like the alternatives are. That is really what the Gnome usability drive over the past few years has been about. To try and bash the other side and mask the stuff that really isn’t up to scratch.
In reality Gnome is not usable. It has just been simplified, which is a big, big difference to anyone who does develop software for a living. Usability is how you work with the requirements of your application and make it usable within that context. I wish I could take a chainsaw to my requirements spec.
Anyone who develops software anywhere knows that you can’t sell usability to anyone. No one wins a contract by promising usability. Software has to be usable enough, and you then improve it from there as part of the whole and as part of wider development.
The people around Gnome seem to think that quoting usability, on its own, to anyone who will seemingly listen, and telling them how bad the alternatives are will bring them the world. It won’t.
Could you please elaborate on what GTK/GNOME apps you have found to be unusable? And for what reason?
“Unfortunately, when you take GTK into the wider world that isn’t good enough. Certainly, not when you talk about the way that Gnome and Linux on the desktop has been hyped as an answer to enterprizes and businesses the world over. ”
1) gtk is not gnome
2) gtk runs in windows, macs,linux,freebsd and handhelds
3) this article is about gtk and not about gnome usability
”
Anyone who develops software anywhere knows that you can’t sell usability to anyone.”
wrong. Apple is doing just that
1) gtk is not gnome
Gnome is tied to what GTK is capable of.
2) gtk runs in windows…
I’ve ran a port of the GIMP on Windows for a while. Running is stretching it.
handhelds…
*Mouth wide open*. Does anyone have a handheld, or a toolkit for a handheld, based on GTK?
wrong. Apple is doing just that
Yes, and look at their market share. Their usability has to be good because there is no real prospect of them growing their market share by any other means. In reality they can only keep it where it is. Apple have to be different through usability and doing things differently (right to left button ordering), and in general they do it pretty well without cutting down on features. It’s not everyone’s cup of tea, but they’ve done it well.
“Gnome is tied to what GTK is capable of. ”
not viceversa. thats what is relevant
“I’ve ran a port of the GIMP on Windows for a while. Running is stretching it. ”
no way. see gaim.sf.net. i use it for 12 hours a day
“*Mouth wide open*. Does anyone have a handheld, or a toolkit for a handheld, based on GTK? ”
yes. obsolutely
“Yes, and look at their market share.”
they arent related. apple is happy to be a niche market selling apple *hardware*. if you dont get that dont bother
http://gpe.handhelds.org/
http://gpe.handhelds.org/
Could you please elaborate on what GTK/GNOME apps you have found to be unusable? And for what reason?
Unfortunately, you’ve misunderstood what I’ve written. My comments extend way beyond picking out the usability of individual Gnome applications, and looking at a desktop as a whole – and that is exactly the problem.
I can’t pick on the usability of individual applications here because it will mean an astronomical flamewar about usability that will get us no where. Unfortunately we’ll just have to say that it is a difference of philosophy in many ways, and leave it at that. I could talk about Spatial Nautilus, why it is not a good idea and how tree views are actually quite usable for most users (depending on the circumstances – which is key), but I think we both know what would happen.
The usability of most Gnome applications (or GTK/HIGified applications – however you want to classify them) is pretty good, and KDE (and Windows) certainly have things to work on because of the general focus that has been brought. That has been good. Unfortunately, it is the general direction and focus of Gnome as a whole that is a problem for where they want to be going, but that’s basically an opinion because it is down to a difference of philosophy. I have experience in those areas, but I know now after many years that I can’t convince anyone of it.
The main point is that you need the tools and the infrastructure to run a desktop environment if you want to go where certain people want Gnome to go. Nothing less will do, and no amount of hype or mud-slinging by anyone is going to make any difference.
“The main point is that you need the tools and the infrastructure to run a desktop environment if you want to go where certain people want Gnome to go. Nothing less will do, and no amount of hype or mud-slinging by anyone is going to make any difference.
”
irrelevant to the topic which is gtk. talk about gnome in a gnome article. this is only about the toolkit
I’d like to see Gtk+ running on a 3d accelerated X server, oh wait Looking Glass does that doesn’t it? I bet it isn’t “slow” anymore…
In all of those great looking demos of Looking Glass by Jonathan Schwartz, would anyone hazard a guess as to what hardware is running that behind the scenes? The day I see Looking Glass running on an ordinary, run of the mill PC is the day I eat my hat. We’ll see Longhorn long before we get to that day.
not viceversa. thats what is relevant
Since the article is about GTK then yes. In the context of what I’ve written, no.
no way. see gaim.sf.net. i use it for 12 hours a day
Well, I’m glad for you.
yes. obsolutely
Where can I buy one, with the GTK-based environment installed? When you put something into that context, that indicates just how far there is to go.
they arent related. apple is happy to be a niche market selling apple *hardware*. if you dont get that dont bother
They are related. Apple has to do that to keep their market share where it is. The software sells the hardware in a big way because ultimately that is what people use every day. When you buy a Mac it is the OS and hardware together. Apple can’t just be happy and be a hardware seller – far from it. Being a niche is a precarious situation. You have to keep being quite a bit different from anyone else to stay still.
irrelevant to the topic which is gtk. talk about gnome in a gnome article. this is only about the toolkit
Unfortunately GTK is a big part of the infrastructure of Gnome. You have to put GTK into a context, into a desktop environment, to see how well GTK shows up. It is entirely relevant because GTK does not stand by itself. As a developer you’re not just looking at the toolkit, but the surrounding infrastructure designed to fit in with it.
BAH, today both GTK and QT are fat pigs sliding down the grease path of MAC and M$.
I just hope FLTK can keep the faith.
http://www.fltk.org/
Sometimes less is more.
“Unfortunately GTK is a big part of the infrastructure of Gnome. You have to put GTK into a context, into a desktop environment, to see how well GTK shows up. It is entirely relevant because GTK does not stand by itself. As a developer you’re not just looking at the toolkit, but the surrounding infrastructure designed to fit in with it.”
gtk is not tied to gnome. its infrastructure depends on the platform which is not just gnome. if there are criticisms about gtk, talk about that. gnome usability doesnt count here
“yes. obsolutely
Where can I buy one, with the GTK-based environment installed? When you put something into that context, that indicates just how far there is to go.
”
gpe.handhelds.org
read that. i already gave you the link
“You have to put GTK into a context, into a desktop environment, to see how well GTK shows up.”
It shows rather well in XFCE.
. . . And ROX-Filer
…it does not improve my Windows 2000 usability in any way.
Au contraire, mon ami…
You get to run extremely powerful and useful applications like gimp, gaim, sodipodi, inkscape, and so on on your legac…ahem… windows operating system!
Bye, and nice troll! ^___-
Yes, and considering the last time I had to rip a bunch of adware and spyware from my GTK (or QT) based environment was . . .
oh, wait . . . never mind.
I must say that I am impressed with how far FLTK has come.
I have no great loyalty to GTK – just that the best media (GIMP, Inkscape, Gxine, Gnomemeeting) tools, DE (and I mean XFCE4 and ROX-Filer NOT GNOME) and communication (Balsa, Evolution if you want something that looks like lookOut, and Gaim) – are besed on GTK. However I do like some QT based stuff (Scribus and K3B do rock) but I hate the startup time of KDE apps (does this improve if you boot all the way into KDE?) and the UI speed does not seem that much more then GTK with comparable themes in use. (I tend to think that a lot of GTK complaining is people who have fancy CPU eating bitmap themes in use)